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Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

Article about: Good afternoon Gentlemen I trust that your 2013 is going along very well Now to the crux of the matter, I am in need of some of your wisdom ... I bought the Iron Cross below a few years ago

  1. #1

    Default Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Good afternoon Gentlemen

    I trust that your 2013 is going along very well

    Now to the crux of the matter, I am in need of some of your wisdom ... I bought the Iron Cross below a few years ago while on holiday in Johannesburg, South Africa. In fact, I came across the item in the small military shop which is/was located within the Johannesburg War Museum itself.

    The shop Manager swore high and low that the item was 100% authentic and he seemed very honest (in fact a published author), but I had and still have my doubts which are:

    * The ribbon looks far too new/clean in my opinion
    * The "ring" has no maker markings
    * The Cross itself has no maker markings
    * The Cross is not magnetic
    * The Swastika seems to touch on the borders of the cross
    * The "outer" frame seems to have rust or colour changes in small places
    * There does appear to be a "seam" in the metal indicating 3 layers but I can't deduce for certain if the "seam" I am seeing is indeed that or perhaps simply a fakers line meant to create that impression (I hope my photos show what I think is a "seam")

    I paid R1000 South African Rands at the time which equates to roughly $100 Dollars. In my mind, all odds are very much against this item being authentic but I would greatly appreciate your input before I decide on its fate.

    Thanks in advance.

    Warm regards

    Adolf
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  3. #2
    ?

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    I wouldnt throw it just yet Adolf i think it stands a chance although a bit bent on the edges and the core looks repainted but they often are unmarked and nonmagnetic. someone here will know for sure

  4. #3

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Thank-you Rory, much appreciated :-)

  5. #4
    ?

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Quote by Adolf Reichmann View Post
    Good afternoon Gentlemen

    I trust that your 2013 is going along very well

    Now to the crux of the matter, I am in need of some of your wisdom ... I bought the Iron Cross below a few years ago while on holiday in Johannesburg, South Africa. In fact, I came across the item in the small military shop which is/was located within the Johannesburg War Museum itself.

    The shop Manager swore high and low that the item was 100% authentic and he seemed very honest (in fact a published author), but I had and still have my doubts which are:

    * The ribbon looks far too new/clean in my opinion
    * The "ring" has no maker markings
    * The Cross itself has no maker markings
    * The Cross is not magnetic
    * The Swastika seems to touch on the borders of the cross
    * The "outer" frame seems to have rust or colour changes in small places
    * There does appear to be a "seam" in the metal indicating 3 layers but I can't deduce for certain if the "seam" I am seeing is indeed that or perhaps simply a fakers line meant to create that impression (I hope my photos show what I think is a "seam")

    I paid R1000 South African Rands at the time which equates to roughly $100 Dollars. In my mind, all odds are very much against this item being authentic but I would greatly appreciate your input before I decide on its fate.

    Thanks in advance.

    Warm regards

    Adolf
    Hello Adolf and welcome to the forum.

    In my opinion the cross you bought is a fake. The materials are very wrong. Take a look at the inner corners of the frame, there is some strange pitting which would never be found on originals and the manner of making the frame would not leave this discolouration or pitting. I don't believe it is made in three pieces but as you have the piece in hand, only you can tell us for sure. There are original one piece crosses but this is not one of them. I think this is a casting of an original cross.

    The suspension loop for the ribbon ring should not be mounted atop the frame but should be soldered to each side. The ring has a break in it, one end of each is attached to the obverse and reverse of the frame.

    The ribbon ring is also not correct for an original cross and the ribbon is also fake.

    Out of curiosity, can you bend it with finger pressure?

    With regards to the points you raise;

    * The ribbon is fake so your observation is partly correct. Brand new original ribbons can be found so don't use condition as a factor in determining authenticity, I have a pile of new ribbons in front of me right now.

    * Not all crosses were marked. Early examples were not marked and markings only started appearing in 1942 if memory serves me correctly.

    * The cross itself should not be marked unless it's an LDO cross from Juncker or Wachtler & Lange - L/12 and L/55 respectively. Any cross which is marked on the frame should be viewed with suspicion unless it's marked as I mentioned above.

    * Non magnetic original crosses do exist. Only the core should be magnetic but brass, copper and zinc cored EKs are found, none of these metals are magnetic.

    * Some swastikas touch the frame, others do not. Again, not a factor in determining originality.

    * The discolouration in this instance is not what you would expect to find on an original cross. Different hues of colour can affect the frames over time, this patina is a good sign although it can be faked.

    * The seam maybe there to create the impression it's made in three pieces but my feeling is that it's been created by the casting.

    I hope the above helps!

  6. #5

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Good morning Adrian

    Yes, unfortunately it does bend when I flex two sides :-( I am assuming this is something fakes do and the originals would never accomplish ? Now I can see why the one tip was so bent, the metal is pretty weak.

    Damn !

    Strange how, as a collector, that one just knows something must be a fake but at the same time hold-out hope-against-hope that the item is real. I will cut myself some slack though as I bought this before I even had half-way decent internet access, knew very little about the original Iron Crosses and was on holiday at the time with money burning a hole in my pocket ! LOL

    So I take it the verdict is to toss the item as a fake ?

    Thanks again guys

    Regards

    Adolf

  7. #6

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Hi and welcome once more!! Adrian has said it all i'm afraid,a fake cross that looks as though it has been used as a bottle opener.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Hello Chaps

    Thank-you for your valued input, very much appreciated. Looking at it now, it certainly does look like it's been used as a bottle-opener LOL ! Well, you live and learn ... $100 poorer but I am consoling myself that it was most likely cast from an original so at least I have a copy of a "genuine item !

    Cheers

    Andrew

  9. #8

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Unfortunately, as the others have said, a fake cross. It sure says nothing complimentary about the museum itself when they allow military shop sellers Within their facility to sell crap to collectors. Either the shop Knowingly sold it as a fake, or even worse in some ways, did not Know it was a fake and sold it regardless, and if they didn't know, why Didn't they know something as rudimentary as a EK2??
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  10. #9

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    Hello Wagriff

    I agree with you totally. They did have some kit displayed seperately as "replicas" but this cross was definitely in the "genuine" medals display. I enquired as to whether or not the cross was genuine and the store manager at the time (an author of a number of travellers tales books) assured me that they had taken as much care to ensure it was a genuine article as possible, allegedly even studying the metal under a microscope. I LOL now at the "story" I was fed but at that stage I was only begining to collect war items and, being in a museum as it was, I believed the seller had to know whether or not it was fake.

    Sad, but I am certain 99% of us collectors bought dodgy items when we started out. If anything, the medal is now a constant reminder NOT to rush into a purchase and study plenty before even considering to hand-over hard earned cash :-)

  11. #10

    Default Re: Am I for real or not ? That is the question only you can answer ...

    you can't be more thorough than Adrian here.

    unfortunately, no item is more "real" than a fake in the hands of a seller.

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