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11-21-2016 06:38 PM
# ADS
Circuit advertisement
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Thanks for the input Harry
It does look like what is an accepted original but is it a case as I mention that there was some entrepreneur knocking these out post wartime make a few pfennigs
You know that S&L, Souval and others have been making TR badges until at least the 90s and more than likely still are.
Perhaps this is a case where we should be re visiting items in our collections.
Remember the case of the S&L knights cross that was accepted as an original for years till someone ventured the fact that they were still making them!
Cheers
Doug
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Saladin
Cloth DKiG Panzer backing
Hello All,
I received this badge from the son of the original owner.
Although not too concerned but here is the story that came with it.
The original buyer purchased this DK in the early 70's and was told that it 'WAS NOT ORIGINAL' and it was an example of the items that were produced as 'Tommy' and 'GI' souvenirs post war.
Looking at the cross it appears to have the Juncker wreath with the fault in the 9.
Besides the green patina the wreath is nicely fire gilded plus the other indications that would be considered to come from an original example.
I particularly like the way the aluminium wire has oxidised.
There is a small amount of mothing but the rear paper is missing.
If this is indeed a souvenir item it looks as though it may throw some doubt on other crosses that are deemed to be genuine.
Best regards
Doug
Hi Doug,
Whoever said it's a copy is talking through their fundament.
if this is fake then so are all the type 1 DK's in cloth as it shows all the precise visible materials that are found on genuine ones. The rectangular cross sectional twisted wire surrounding the wreath, and the double twisted silver thread of the rays along with all the other materials used on this cloth cross point to the maker being Hermann Schmuck & Cie.
The wreath is as you say, a Junker pattern with the usual date flaws, and the green corrosion on it is due to it being made from cupal and then given the fire gilded finish. The fact that it's a Panzer version only makes this even more desirable, I love it and would take it in a heartbeat.
Regards, Ned.
'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'
In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.
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Hello Ned
Thank you for your input. You understand exactly what I am saying.
The seller is quite sure that it was sold as a reproduction back in the 70s
Like you I believe it is good but does it not leave a niggly feeling it really could be from a bundle of items that were picked up post war.
I'm happy enough with it. I think this is the first panzer backed one I have come across.
Best regards
Doug
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'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'
In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.
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big ned
Hi Doug,
As I said before, if it's a post war put together then ALL type 1 crosses by Schmuck & Cie in both gold and silver are also post war. Try telling that to the collectors of these awards and I think you'll find it won't float with them. But hey, stranger things have happened before this was mooted by this mysterious naysayer way back when......
If it helps, and you want to get rid of it for a price reflecting this assertion then I'll take it (
reluctantly 
) off your hands right now.
Regards, Ned.
Can you imagine that Ned,
It certainly would be a big hit for all the collectors who own one of these.
The Schmuch & Cie. badges when the paper is removed look to display more threads on the reverse.
I've got one or two of these cloth badges, when I get chance I'll pull them out and have a closer look at the makeup.
I think I have posted several of these before to compare with.
Intriguing at least.
Cheers
Doug
Last edited by Saladin; 11-22-2016 at 06:50 PM.
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Saladin
Can you imagine that Ned,
It certainly would be a big hit for all the collectors who own one of these.
The Schmuch & Cie. badges when the paper is removed look to display more threads on the reverse.
I've got one or two of these cloth badges, when I get chance I'll pull them out and have a closer look at the makeup.
I think I have posted several of these before to compare with.
Intriguing at least.
Cheers
Douh
Being for the most part mainly handmade, they were actually fashioned on an embroidery hoop rather than a sewing machine, and there can be quite large variations to the finished cross depending on the lady who most likely made it. The thing that separates the three known different types is knowing how to spot the minutiae of the constituent materials used and associated construction methods.
The differences in swastika size, the twist structure of the thread, the cross sectional shape of the wire, the backing cloth etc., etc., all add up together to show the techniques and specific materials used for each of the three accepted types. So, the amount of genuine and proven materials used, plus the proven manufacturing techniques and procedures make it a pretty easy call to form a well based and cogent judgement on any particular piece. It's not guess work or rocket science, just taking time to study the details of known/accepted originals to be able to do this comfortably.
That's what method I choose rather than throwing out a random, "I like it" or "it's fake" and leave it at that, because that's what so many so called collectors do for any of the thousands of different items of TR militaria we collect without explaining why they think that, and let's face it, any old Joe Blow can say that.
It's important to me to try to explain why or why not a piece is one or the other after using these details to form a considered opinion, and as such indicate exactly why I think a particular piece is good or bad to help fellow collectors to understand what to look for. And that's it, that's the difference, study, learn commit to memory and then freely share with fellow collectors if it can help them in making a possibly important and expensive decision when they need to.
Regards, Ned.
'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'
In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.
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Just to add my 2p worth, there is nothing wrong with it, 100% original.
Cheers, Ade.
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