Für raub und morder - 1941

[Dimas]

At least better resolution EK 2 1941

[Adrian]

Thank you for the addition pics Dimas.
Note the two different frames and how worn and damaged the obverse frame is on the cross above compared to the relatively clean reverse frame.

[Badto666]

Found this one out for auction om militaria321. Don´t think it´s an original.Of course the seller says it is... Looks like it´s a 3 peace construction.

[Badto666]

And here´s another one I found there for sale too.

[Dimas]

As you can see, there is difference in the date 1813, but I think that will be soon counted by a fakers, and the problem that peoples can compare original with just the pictures exists untill tommorow
I really did'nt trust that any of the originals will be available, due of originals which exists, are stonely sits in the collections

[Dimas]

The fake 2 class crosses is constructed from a 4 pieces, due the steel central plate is impossible to made with one piece of iron, it needs at least power for 350 tones Which is available at the big factories only

[Adrian]

The thing I'm seeing here guys is original EK2s being taken apart and fake cores inserted. You can see this on the cross in post #23 and to a lesser extent in post #24. I'm curious about the EK1 that Dimas posted in #17. Why no shot of the front? I have a very strong suspicion that we may see a Floch or other fake frame there.

I just can't see the Russians spending time churning out these crosses when there were T-34s and Kalashnikovs to produce!

Some questions:

If the Russians made these crosses, wouldn't they all be identical?
The same frames?
The same cores?
Why spend the time producing an EK1 and EK2?
Who exactly were the crosses given to?
Why were so few made?
If time and trouble was taken to make these crosses why not make thousands?
Is it logical to think that under wartime conditions, the Russians would make a perfect example of a German made EK1 down to the hardware setup on the back?
The story goes that these were made during the siege of Leningrad. Seriously..... under these terrible siege conditions, the Russians managed to produce the dies and tools to make 500 'Für raub und mord' EKs........? They had nothing else to do? Stranger things have happened but is that really believable?

There are so many questions surrounding these crosses. I have never heard of an original example with cast iron undoubted proof that it is an original being found. I know and communicate with some experienced and respected EK collectors and none of them have or want one of these crosses in their collection. That speaks volumes.
I will happily be proved wrong on these crosses and I will stress that my opinion is just that - my opinion.
Please, someone convince me otherwise........

[Snni]

The thing I'm seeing here guys is original EK2s being taken apart and fake cores inserted. You can see this on the cross in post #23 and to a lesser extent in post #24. I'm curious about the EK1 that Dimas posted in #17. Why no shot of the front? I have a very strong suspicion that we may see a Floch or other fake frame there.

I just can't see the Russians spending time churning out these crosses when there were T-34s and Kalashnikovs to produce!

Some questions:

If the Russians made these crosses, wouldn't they all be identical?
The same frames?
The same cores?
Why spend the time producing an EK1 and EK2?
Who exactly were the crosses given to?
Why were so few made?
If time and trouble was taken to make these crosses why not make thousands?
Is it logical to think that under wartime conditions, the Russians would make a perfect example of a German made EK1 down to the hardware setup on the back?
The story goes that these were made during the siege of Leningrad. Seriously..... under these terrible siege conditions, the Russians managed to produce the dies and tools to make 500 'Für raub und mord' EKs........? They had nothing else to do? Stranger things have happened but is that really believable?

There are so many questions surrounding these crosses. I have never heard of an original example with cast iron undoubted proof that it is an original being found. I know and communicate with some experienced and respected EK collectors and none of them have or want one of these crosses in their collection. That speaks volumes.
I will happily be proved wrong on these crosses and I will stress that my opinion is just that - my opinion.
Please, someone convince me otherwise........

I agree!!
Well written. I don't think the Russians made a single example of these crosses.

[big ned]

Hi Guys,

This is a very interesting thread, and I'd like to add to it with this example that has just appeared on the Beck Militaria website. It is an EK2 with a magnetic core and an asking price of 460 euro's. What is the general consensus on it's make up and appearance. Ta.

Regards, Ned.

P.S. Not the best pic's but that's all they've got up.

[Dimas]

I don't think that originals are available on the market- I would suggest- a fine fakes, even there no originals in the hands to compare