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Iron Crosses

Article about: Hi guys, I have a few questions about EKII's. I have always loved these as well as German helmets. I want to have a really extensive helmet and cross collection. Some of you have posted your

  1. #1

    Default Iron Crosses

    Hi guys, I have a few questions about EKII's.

    I have always loved these as well as German helmets. I want to have a really extensive helmet and cross collection. Some of you have posted your cross collections on here and it really amazes me.

    I know a decent amount about iron crosses, i.e. proper construction, details to look for, rarities, etc. I have a few helmets so far but only one EKII, so I have decided to try and get every single maker mark possible. Here are my requests/questions:

    1. Could someone post an approximate order of maker marked crosses from most common to least common? It would be nice in case I ever came across a few crosses for the same price and I had to choose one based on how long it will be before I see another again. This might be a little tedious but it would be an AMAZING reference. If there is already one somewhere that I don't know about, please let me know.

    2. I have skimmed the internet for good reference books but there doesn't seem to be a solid clean cut iron cross reference book like there are with steel helmets. I know about the wehrmacht-awards website and it's really nice but I would like to try and find a really good, thick book that I can use. Do any of you know of a good one?

    3. Can someone run through the list of the rarities, i.e. the Übergrosse, Schinckel, etc. and explain exactly what these all are? I have only vague ideas of what they are but it would be cool if someone could just explain the differences in a nutshell.

    4. What is the difference between a more orange ribbon as opposed to the red ones? Is the orange/white/black set-up a feature of earlier crosses?

    5. Lastly, just out of curiosity, what is your favorite maker? I want to look at a lot of pretty crosses on this thread so I can pick a favorite.

    I have attached a few pictures of my cross, a 106 Bruder Schneider A.G., Wien, just in case anyone was interested in seeing it. Please feel free to post whatever pictures you wish.

    At least my first one is one of the harder to find variants!

    Regards,
    Mo
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Hi Mo, great questions and I am sure we will all be able to contribute answers. I am also trying to collect by PKZ maker . I have a list of known makers given to me by our resident EK 'guru' Adrian C! Some are quite common and some are scarce, the difficult to find ones which I am looking for to complete my collection, are on my signature below.

    1 - Deschler
    2 - Juncker (unmarked)
    3 - Deumer
    4 - Steinhauer & Luck
    5 - Herman Wernstein (?)
    6 - Fritz Zimmermann
    7 - Paul Meybauer
    11 - Grossman & Co
    13 - Gustav Brehmer
    14 - L. Chr. Lauer
    15 - Friedrich Orth
    16 - Alois Rettenmaier
    19 - E. Ferd Weidmann
    21 - Gebr. Godet & Co
    22 - Boerger & Co
    23 - Arbeitsgemeinschaft fur Heereshedarf darf In der Graveur-u. Ziseleurinnung
    24 - Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Hanauer Plaket-ten-hersteller
    25 - Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Graveur-Gold-und Silberschemiede-Innungen
    27 - Anton Schenkl
    38 - Unknown (?)
    40 - Berg & Nolte
    44 - Jakob Bengel
    52 - Gottlieb & Wagner
    55 - J. E. Hammer & Sohne
    56 - Robert Hauschild
    60 - Katz & Deyhle
    65 - Klein & Quenzer
    66 - Friedrich Keller
    75 - Unknown
    76 - Ernst L. Muller
    86 - Paulmann & Crone
    93 - Richard Simm & Sohne
    98 - Rudolf Souval
    100 - Wachtler & Lange
    106 - Bruder Schneider
    109 - Walter & Hentein (Unmarked but in correct packet for this maker)
    113 - Hermann Aurich
    120 - Franz Petzl
    122 - JJ. Stahl
    123 - Beck, Hassinger & Co.
    125 - Eugen Gauss
    128 - S. Jablonski
    132 - Franz Reischauer
    137 - J.H. Werner
    138 - Julius Maurer

    There are also LDO makers which Sonny has all but one I believe ! I am sure he will fill you in

    Again using Adrian Cs perfect description of LDOs:

    "Basically the award manufacturers were given a Präsidialkanzlei (PKZ) number, for example Deschler was number 1, Juncker was number 2, right through to A.D. Schwert who was number 142. Some makers were authorized to
    make EKs, some weren't. In addition, certain manufacturers were granted an LDO license to make awards for private purchase and given an LDO number.
    This had no relation to their PKZ number. These companies were allowed to make awards for private purchase and had to mark them with their 'L' number.
    So, Deumer made EKs marked '3' and also 'L/11'. The awards marked '3' were used as award pieces and issued in the field, at award ceremonies etc. The pieces marked 'L/11' were sold directly from Deumer or from approved outlets for awardees who wished to buy another example of their award. An EK
    recipient might want to keep his award medal at home, at barracks, send it to his wife or parents etc. He might then also wish to have an example court mounted for use on this best uniform, so he would go the maker or an outlet
    that sold EKs, provide proof he was entitled to the award and purchase an LDO marked cross.
    LDO numbered awards are significantly rarer than their PKZ marked counterparts due to the quantities of each made (or marked) in relation to one another. LDO awards will often be found in good quality cases made specifically for the piece whereas PKZ examples came in the blue paper envelope.
    Adrian "

    I find the best place to learn about EKs are on forums, there are some good books but they are out of date now. 'The Iron Cross of 1939' by Gordon Williamson is probably the best.

    I personally dont have a favourite maker I find beauty in them all

    Your '106' is a nice and uncommon cross

    Search forums for the variant 'Ubergrosse', 'schinkels', 'round 3' etc there is plenty of info around

    Nick
    Last edited by Dimas; 09-29-2014 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Iron Cross maker marks
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  4. #3
    ?

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Hi Mo.
    I afraid that is not so easy to learn you all about EK2's in this thead! You have to study the different forums hard! I think that is the best way to know more about the crosses. I still learn every day!

    I also try to collect every maker and variant.
    But it is a very hard and expensive task!
    For example, there are 5 R3 variants and 9 schinkel variants. So that alone are difficult.
    Then there is the PKZ makers, in the list Nick posted.
    The common makers cost 80-90€, so no problem. But the really rare ones are very expensive, like the Übergrosse, Littlebrother, LDO's, R3, Schinkel B and so on! So prepare yourself to spend a lot of money! For example, I gave 1000$ for a Schinkel B recently. Then you move on to the LDO's. Very expensive also! So you can imagine how much a complete EK2 collection will cost! But if you are loaded, no problem

    The LDO list:
    L/11
    L/12
    L/13
    L/14
    L/15
    L/16
    L/18
    L/54
    L55
    L/56
    and the L/58, but are considered as postwar by many collectors.


    I don't know of any good EK2 book on the marked, but I know there are one on the way.

    Übergrosse is a oversized EK2. Insted of 44x44mm it's 47x47 mm.
    Littlebrother is a filed down Übergrosse, 44x44mm.
    Schinkel is a variant of the EK2, like the Round3.
    I have posted some pics to show the different variant.
    Hope it help a bit. Hold the cursor over the pics to see the names.

    And remember, just ask in the forum every time you have a question.
    There are a few real EK2 experts in this forum.
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Thanks for your replies!

    I'd love to get Adrian's input on this as well. It would be great to get a thread like this pinned at the top so that some one can run through it and know a lot about EKII's, just like that. : )

    I know you can't choose a favorite, Nick, but how about you Sonny? Any favorites?

    Also, this L/58 cross, why is it considered to be postwar?

  6. #5
    ?

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Quote by ObKrieger View Post
    I know you can't choose a favorite, Nick, but how about you Sonny? Any favorites?

    Also, this L/58 cross, why is it considered to be postwar?
    Well, it's very hard to pick just one out, but it have to be the Schinkel B or one of the LDO's..
    Simply because they are very rare and you don't see them so often as the rest.
    So I have to pick one right now, the Schinkel B

    As you properly know Souval made a lot of crosses after the war. Some think that the L/58 was made or stamped after the war.
    But I really can't made up my mind about the matter. Good original L/58 cases are to be found, so why not a good L/58 to go with it.
    Adrian have a example of the L/58. Maybe he could post it. If I ever find a wartime Souval with L/58, I will buy it.

    Good luck hunting for the crosses
    Soon 1 will become 50.. I went from 1 to many in 18 months..
    A little pic of it, but more have been added since.

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  7. #6

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    It is REALLY hard to stop at one...I started with a nice S&L '4', then came a ground dug JEH '55'. I figured that would be enough but then I saw a really nice Brehmer '13' last week so that is on its way to me now. I also want a nice cased EK1 which means i'll need a ground dug example to compliment it!

    They really are beautiful awards and look fantastic when displayed. There surely can't be too many people in the world who could see one and not know what it is.

    Glenn

  8. #7

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Quote by Glenn66 View Post
    It is REALLY hard to stop at one...I started with a nice S&L '4', then came a ground dug JEH '55'. I figured that would be enough but then I saw a really nice Brehmer '13' last week so that is on its way to me now. I also want a nice cased EK1 which means i'll need a ground dug example to compliment it!

    They really are beautiful awards and look fantastic when displayed. There surely can't be too many people in the world who could see one and not know what it is.

    Glenn
    You are right Glenn, they are iconic ! Looking foward to seing your collection grow, be careful is is unbelievably addictive

    I hope one day to have a collection as fantastic as Sonnys, with cased EK2s and a set of LDOs ( I can but dream)

    Nick
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  9. #8

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Quote by Stickgrenade View Post
    be careful is is unbelievably addictive
    I know! And you and Sonny are like a pair of drug dealers!

    I've got to fight this addiction as I collect other awards as well...i've got 4 KVK's (with swords and without, both classes), another OstMedaille, 2 Verwundetenabzeichen im Silber, a pair of Tank collar skulls and 2 Erkennungsmarken somewhere in transit to me at the moment...I couldn't possibly afford a full EK collection no matter how much you stand there and wave your shiney baubles at me...begone you foul temptress!

  10. #9

    Default Re: Iron Crosses

    Quote by Glenn66 View Post
    I know! And you and Sonny are like a pair of drug dealers!

    I've got to fight this addiction as I collect other awards as well...i've got 4 KVK's (with swords and without, both classes), another OstMedaille, 2 Verwundetenabzeichen im Silber, a pair of Tank collar skulls and 2 Erkennungsmarken somewhere in transit to me at the moment...I couldn't possibly afford a full EK collection no matter how much you stand there and wave your shiney baubles at me...begone you foul temptress!
    Ha! Ha! I used to yell ' get thee behind me Satan!' everytime I was tempted but it never worked

    I also collect other TR stuff, EKs dont make a quater of my collection. Its nice to change sometimes as there is so much that catches your eye!

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

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