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Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

Article about: Some members may have seen this pic before from another forum and for that I apologise but I'll post it here too for all to see. From experience, quite a few collectors, some completely new

  1. #1
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    Default Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Some members may have seen this pic before from another forum and for that I apologise but I'll post it here too for all to see.
    From experience, quite a few collectors, some completely new to the hobby and some older collectors new to EKs ask about the differences between the Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s.
    I've attached a pic below of all three together with their respective measurements to the nearest millimetre for a visual reference of these types and to help collectors identify the basic differences between them. The 'standard' EK2 is a Deumer, for no other reason than it was the first one I pulled out of the box!
    One other thing - Schinkel crosses are not to be confused with Schickle crosses. Otto Schickle was a manufacturer who (as far as can be certain) did not produce Schinkel EKs.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Adrian; 04-09-2010 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Incorrect measurements on original photo, amended and corrected.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.



    Adrian,
    It's good to see you here, and thank you, that's a great demonstration to show the differences between the variations.

    I'm curious to know the exact measurements of your übergroße cross, as you have said that you have written the sizes to the 'nearest milimetre'...
    I know this sound like a trivial discrepancy, but my two übergroße crosses measure (46.88 x 46.85) and (46.85 x 46.96), bringing them closer to the 47mm mark.
    I have heard that there are 2 types of übergroße cross and I'd love to see an example of the second type as all I have seen are the same type as my examples. Yours looks to be the same type also, so I would love to hear the precise measurements if possible.

    Thanks again.
    Regards - Danny
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Danny70; 04-09-2010 at 02:37 AM.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Great info Adrian, thanks

    Which makers produced the Ubergrosse and why ?

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  5. #4

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Hi Nick,

    As far as I am aware, no one knows for certain who made the übergroße, although some examples have turned up in packets marked Frank & Reif of Stuttgart. As to whether they originally came packed as such, we cannot be certain.

    There is a theory that they were originally produced as 'prototypes' of the new Ritterkreuz (which measures 48 x 48mm), and in Gordon Williamson's 'The Iron Cross of 1939', he mentions that a picture of one appears in a period Winterhilfswerke 'Kampf im Osten' booklet with the caption 'das neue Ritterkreuz'. (I have not seen this myself, and am searching for a copy at the moment).

    What ever the reason they were produced for, the fact is that they ended up being added to existing stocks of EK2's and were distributed as such. It is only us collectors who place such importance on their size difference.

    Hopefully Adrian will have some more information on the subject.

    Regards - Danny
    Last edited by Danny70; 04-09-2010 at 02:41 PM.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Hi Danny,
    My apologys, there is a typo on my photo, the correct measurements for the Ubergrosse I show are: 46.86 x 46.96mm meaning the Ubergrosse should measure 47 x 47mm to the nearest mm. I'll edit the photo and repost it to avoid confusion.
    You are correct in saying there are two different sizes for these crosses, the type we have both shown and also the 'baby' or 'little brother' Ubergrosse. This is in fact no different to the normal type in terms of manufacture but the 'baby' crosses have had the edges of the frame filed down to bring it more into line with a standard EK2. Therefore we find a normal looking Ubergrosse with regard to the core and beading, just with very thin flanges on the frame. I don't unfortunately own one of these, still on my shopping list, but I'll see if I can dig a photo up from somewhere.
    The reason anyone produced these crosses is still a suject of debate. As Danny has mentioned, possibly a prototype for a Ritterkreuz, I've also heard mentioned they were to represent a Ritterkreuz on a medalbar. Whatever the reason, it is likely we will never know but at least it gives us collectors something to talk about!

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Here we go, I found this one I had saved from a thread on WAF.
    The discussion can be found here: 'Little brother' Ubergrosse - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
    The photo and crosses belong to Robert Pierce. (And are posted with his permission.)
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Adrian; 04-10-2010 at 12:00 AM.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Thanks Danny/Adrian

    Very informative. Both proposed reasons for production are plausable !

    That Gordon Williamson book you mention is on the market for a huge price, it must be worth having

    Nick
    "In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem

  9. #8

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Thanks Adrian,

    I knew about the 'little brother' cross, but had thought when people mentioned another type of übergroße that they were referring to a different maker cross with the same measurements as our types have.
    So, there is only one maker of the übergroße (both large and 'little brother'), as both use the same core and frame.

    Thanks for clarifying this... I could never work out why I hadn't seen a second type!

    I don't have a 'little brother' either, but almost had....
    I had purchased one as a regular unmarked EK2 a few years ago, paid for it and everything, but someone alerted the seller at the last minute and suddenly the price was quadrupled... and then some!. I couldn't afford it at the time so accepted my refund.
    I can't say I blame the seller though.

    Someday maybe.

    Regards - Danny

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Quote by Danny70 View Post
    I don't have a 'little brother' either, but almost had....
    I had purchased one as a regular unmarked EK2 a few years ago, paid for it and everything, but someone alerted the seller at the last minute and suddenly the price was quadrupled... and then some!. I couldn't afford it at the time so accepted my refund.
    I can't say I blame the seller though.

    Someday maybe.

    Regards - Danny
    Ouch! you mst have been gutted, I know I would've been!
    Out of curiosity Danny, what did the price go up to? I'm not sure what others would accept as being a reasonable price for one of these but I wouldn't pay any more than I would for a full sized Ubergrosse.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Ubergrosse, standard and Schinkel EK2s for reference.

    Quote by AdrianC View Post
    ....Out of curiosity Danny, what did the price go up to? I'm not sure what others would accept as being a reasonable price for one of these but I wouldn't pay any more than I would for a full sized Ubergrosse.
    Adrian,

    To be honest, it's about 4 years back and I can't remember exactly, but I do remember that he had claimed a regular übergroße cost about €700, which I knew was BS, so I declined. Although, to be fair, I don't think he was asking €700 for the 'little brother'.

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