Dresden

[Mike Peters]

It would be a great idea for us to stick to the topic and keep today’s Politics out of it. Besides ..Obama will fix everything now and life will be wonderful

Here’s a recent Thread that’s also discussing Dresden and how German Historians have reassessed the figures.
I also don’t agree with the number they arrived at since it doesn’t look like they had any way of knowing or take into consideration how many refugees and wounded were in the City at the time.
Commission Report on WWII Dresden Bombing Toll - World War Militaria
What it comes down to …There was a lot more than delicate figurines and porcelain produced there --Dresden WAS a legitimate Military Target because of the Rail Hub and the many Factories producing for the War effort.
If anyone doubts that ..you’ll see on the other Thread where I have an original Dresden Phone Book and if you’d like , I can start listing the Companies, their phone numbers and addresses for you.
Also …yes the War was essentially over at that point ---But the Allies knew that Dresden would be in the Soviet Zone and they wanted to “make a Statement” --they felt by leaving a “footprint” where a City once was would let the Soviets know what the Allied Air power was capable of.
When it was over , I think they were shocked at how big of a “footprint” they ended up leaving ..just to influence post war politics.

[Ostm63]

You have a phonebook of Dresden and according to this entries Dresden was
a legit target ... or do i get this wrong

[Mike Peters]

You have a phonebook of Dresden and according to this entries Dresden was a legit target

Were you for some reason under the impression that Dresden was only full of innocent Civilians ? There was no War related Industry at all ? Are you saying that the Phone book won’t reflect any Factories and will only have Residential numbers listed ?
I’ve seen many revionists claim that Dresden had no Industry at all (incl Irving - Real History: Apocalypse 1945, The Destruction of Dresden ) There were only 2 groups who screamed the loudest about Dresden …the Neo’s and the Soviets ... Both have an agenda . This was a tragedy ..but look at how many died in other German Cities.
Dresden’s own Website admits its Industry was involved in “Armaments Production”
“Numerous world firsts and traditional brand-name products strengthened the reputation of typewriters, photographic equipment, electrical products and packaging machinery from Dresden. Even though there were, in 1929, for example, ten major enterprises with more than 1,000 employees in the city, it was equally the endless number of small and medium companies and businesses which determined the extraordinary diversity in Dresden's economic profile.
During both World Wars of the 20th century, Dresden's industry was placed almost fully at the disposal of armaments production.
The air raids of February 1945 destroyed 70% of the industrial facilities in Dresden.” City of Dresden - City of industry

The phone book just makes it a lot easier to look up the various Companies that were there …without trying to find bits and pieces or hearsay on the Web.

[pjm]

A Feb 15 Dresden newspaper sent to a soldier with notations...apartment destroyed, etc. "Dresden is dead"

[Ostm63]

@pjm

Thats a very interesting paper, thx for showing

@Mike

There is all said ... nothing to add

Bombing of Dresden in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When i am in London i have to visit the memorial of Mr. Harrys

[Mike Peters]

Hi Ostmark , We all know that “Wikipedia” can not be completely trusted since people (or even groups) with their own agenda can log on and add or delete information to fit their needs.It’s important to keep that in mind when we use their information. For example …look at what both the Obama and McCaine Campaign Staff did –
McCain, Obama campaigns discovered making questionable edits to Wikipedia | MND: Your Daily Dose of Counter-Theory

Another –
“Wikipedia bills itself as the web's "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." That statement illustrates Wikipedia's greatest strength as well as its greatest weakness.

Anyone with an Internet connection can instantly create or edit an article on Wikipedia. Wikipedia contributors are not certified nor are their credentials verified--either formally or informally. Critics are concerned that this open--apparently laissez-faire--approach makes Wikipedia content vulnerable to incomptents, zealots, or vandals. While the possibility of bad Wikipedia content troubles the detractors, the proponents contend that the open approach also provides for continual peer review which leads to a superior product.”Waterloo Public Library Reference: Wikipedia: Authoritative? Or Questionable?

Another –
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/te...pagewanted=all

One more –
Bias, sabotage haunt Wikipedia's free world - The Boston Globe

Now …the Wikipedia site you posted also makes this comment --
“In the first few decades after the war, some death toll estimates were as high as 250,000. However, figures in the regions of hundreds of thousands are considered disproportionate.[8] Today's historians estimate a death toll of between 25,000 and 40,000, with an independent investigation commissioned by the city itself declaring the death total around 25,000.[9][10]”
The fact that the death toll numbers were reduced so drastically from 250,000 to 25,000 doesn’t make the Bombing of Dresden any less of a Tragedy. Even though the City did have Industry and the Rails were vital to the War effort …I don’t agree with their decision to level it.

What’s important is that we remember ALL the Soldiers and Civilians that died in WW2 on all sides …many of whom are still in unmarked graves and (in some cases) long forgotten.

Here's a site with a graph showing some "estimates" since , we will never really know exactly how many lives were lost during the War --
WWII: The Casualties

Axis Forces
Country Pop. Killed/Mising Wounded Total(Military) Civilian(deaths)
Germany 78m 3.5 million 4.6 million 8.1 million 2million
Italy 44m 330,000 ? ? 70,000
Japan 72m 1.75 million ? ? 350,000
Rumania 20m 500,000 300,000 800,000 400,000
Bulgaria 6m 10,000 ? ? 50,000
Hungary 10m 120,000 250,000 370,000 200,000
Finland 4m 100,000 45,000 145,000 4,000

Allied Forces (in order of entry into the war)
Country Pop. Killed/Mising Wounded Total(Military) Civilian (deaths)

China 450m 1.3 million 1.8 million 3.1 million 9 million
Poland 35m 130,000 200,000 330,000 2.5million
U.K. 48m 400,000 300,000 700,000 60,000
France 42m 250,000 350,000 600,000 270,000
Australia 7m 30,000 40,000 70,000 --
India 360m 36,000 64,000 100,000 --
New Zeal 2m 10,000 20,000 30,000 --
So. Africa 10m 9,000 14,000 23,000 --
Canada 11m 42,000 50,000 92,000 --
Denmark 4m 2,000 ? ? 1,000
Norway 3m 10,000 ? ? 6,000
Belgium 8m 12,000 16,000 28,000 100,000
Holland 9m 14,000 7,000 21,000 250,000
Greece 7m 90,000 ? ? 400,000
Yugoslavia 15m 320,000 ? ? 1.3million
U.S.S.R. 194m 9 million 18 million 27 million 19 million
U.S.A. 129m 300,000 300,000 600,000 --

[Mike Peters]

The Graph didn't copy exactly the way I hoped but ..oh well
(sorry about that)

[packin9]

Mike Peters is on the ball! Good research. Not too many want to admit the Allies bombed civilian targets for breaking the Germans back. Take the 'Dambusters' for instance.(great for Hollywood) Another allied 'war crime'.The only dam that would have effected the German war effort was the Sorpe Dam. That damage was minimal. The Moehne and Eder dam caused flooding of agricultural land of which Germany had a lot of. One of the few Nations to be able to feed itself. Hydroelectricity was not effected as the Moehne did not have much and the Eder none. What happened was 1,300 civilians (non-Germans) Ukrainian displaced woman and children down stream of the Moehne perished. Also 50% of the RAF (some Canadians) never returned.

[zbcdn]

A taste of what they inflicted on every country they invaded.

[OKW]

The war was taken to Germanys civilians mainly because the technology, laser guided munitions etc, that we have today weren't available then. The report commissioned to check up on bomber commands efforts in the first 2-3 years showed that less than 10% of bombs fell within 5 miles of the designated target. Precision bombing in the dark, when the aircraft being used made every sortie dangerous just by being used in the dark and bad weather, was beyond the capabilities of the airmen at that time. Area bombing was started because it was reasoned that a whole city made a more obtainable target than a single factory. Plus people thought those who had dished it out were getting some back, a human reaction at the time. Dresden was bombed because it was a transport hub, personnel and weapons were being staged through to oppose the soviet offensives. It was also done to impress the Russians with the wests aerial destructive capabilities. I don't think they would have noticed really considering the level of general destruction that had occured on the eastern front which the west seemed, and still does, to have been unaware of. And finally the weapon was there, it was functioning, supplied and fully manned. Losses of 5-10% of the bomber force would still have been less than trying to get depleted armour and infantry units which were undermanned due to casualities from D-Day onwards to push harder into Germany. Britain at this time was fast approaching bankrupty and had run out of young men for the services, bomber crews were available with loads more in the pipeline due to the lag in training times to operational readiness. Dresden just happened to draw the short straw.