Stephan...you are too funny...go ahead and take it off. It makes no difference to me. I recognize all human suffering in the second world war and diminish no ones suffering in the war. My father in law lost all of his family in Latvia...sooo it's uniqueness certainly has meaning in my family.
Last edited by paragon man; 03-01-2014 at 08:03 PM.
I agree with Stephan...it is all part of Crimean world war history...as are my questions he found offense too...and threatened to end the thread...by the way... I meant no offense but this is certainly not an apology for my questions. Stephan....have you read Bloodlands by Tymothy Snyder? Frundsberg does have a point though...Stephan posted holocaust photos as a response, I feel, to not liking the attention given to the german cemetery, changed the dynamics of the thread and then threatened to end the thread when he didn't like the questions raised by his leaving out other German victims around Kerch....really this was a vacation with my son and the photos are reflective of that and little more.
Last edited by paragon man; 03-01-2014 at 08:03 PM.
Indeed I have and was grateful that he considered one of the books I was involved in publishing was worthy enough to write a great review of it for the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/bo...ecki.html?_r=0
He even went as far as to appear in seminars discussing the hero of our book.
But this is straying from the subject even further.
I collect, therefore I am.
Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.
Interesting review...as the Polish officer witnessed... the event for Jews was unique...we do not disagree on this uniqueness and we shouldn't disagree that the effort to know the numbers, names, and experiences of all victims of the Nazis should receive the same effort in research. We should know how many non Jews were killed/murdered in Kerch...we should know.
Last edited by paragon man; 03-01-2014 at 07:59 PM.
It is apparent that more offence was taken by my inclusion of the memorials to the murdered Jews of Kerch than by my taking offence at any part of the thread.
No one could disagree.by paragon man
We should, but I don't. What did you discover?
I collect, therefore I am.
Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.
I have discovered that people are both selective and sensitive in how they research and view crimes of the second world war. There is no way to continue to ignore/downplay other crimes of the German Nation because they are not "unique" enough. You are the person responsible for adding crimes of the Nazis armies to this thread...tell us about the other crimes committed in the Kerch area. How can research of the Holocaust/crimes of the Nazis not know what they were? I will say one thing....the added thread about the Krychaks was maybe the most interesting and rare aspect of the Holocaust I have ever read...something I would like to know more about. I welcome your research, knowledge, and addition to anything I post...out of respect for you, my father in laws family buried at Rumbula, and all other victims of the Nazis...I am far from offended. I will make sure I visit the sites you posted if the Crimea is ever open to tourist again.
The only offensive thing posted here was your threat to end the thread bc you didn't like the questions I posed....which are certainly relevant to the crimes of the Nazis...and shouldn't be ignored by researchers any longer.
Last edited by paragon man; 03-03-2014 at 03:16 AM.
While we are doing cemeteries in the Ukraine..here is another
summer and winter visit
Here is the same cemetery near Kiev...in the summer time.
Stark evidence of this selectivity you describe can be found in the very monument you have posted. The text below states simply that after the largest encirclement battle of WWII the Germans occupied the city of Kiev 19 September 1941 and it was taken back in 1944. It also states that an estimated 40,000 victims are in Northern Ukraine.
Just 25 kms away from the above memorial, between September 29–30, 1941 just ten days after the German occupation of Kiev 33,771 Jewish victims were killed in a single operation.
The decision to kill all the Jews in Kiev was made by the military governor, Major-General Kurt Eberhard, the Police Commander for Army Group South, SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, and the Einsatzgruppe C Commander Otto Rasch. It was carried out by Sonderkommando 4a soldiers, along with the aid of the SD and SS Police Battalions backed by the local Ukrainian police.
The murder site is known as Babi Yar.
Victims of other massacres at the site included thousands of Soviet prisoners of war, communists, gypsies, Ukrainian nationalists and civilian hostages. It is estimated that between 100,000 and 150,000 lives were taken at Babi Yar during the German occupation.
Before the Nazis retreated from Kiev ahead of the Soviet offensive of 1944, they were ordered by Wilhelm Koppe to conceal their atrocities in the East. They found the time to do that.
Below is the memorial to the Jewish victims. There are other memorials to other victims of the German occupation of Kiev apart from any to the gypsies as funding was never found worthy enough. I have selected the Jewish memorial which was vandalised in 2006...the only memorial to be vandalised.
The war crimes of the Germans are extensively researched both within Germany and without.
It is the war crimes of the Soviets that are very much less well researched because of the non-access to archival documents during the communist period, but organisations such as Karta in Poland and Memorial in Russia have done much to bring the crimes of the USSR into public awareness and they continue to do so.
You mentioned Rumbula in your pervious posts. The Rumbula massacres of 30 November and 8 December, 1941 in which about 25,000 Jews were killed in or on the way to Rumbula forest near Riga, Latvia was with the exception of the Babi Yar murder of Jews in Ukraine, the largest Holocaust atrocity until the operation of the German extermination camps.
Last edited by StefanM; 03-03-2014 at 05:13 PM.
I collect, therefore I am.
Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.
That is a great post...
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