Villers-Bocage Then & Now......

**CINDERSII** · 06-23-2017, 08:34 AM

That firefly the road favours the Tiger if it was over the rise it would almost be in the hull down position with the firefly advancing up the hill really appreciate this thread Then & Now.

**Paul D** · 06-25-2017, 08:59 PM

I visit VB at least three times a year Guding a Panzers in Normandy Tour when we cover the Battle in detail . Certainly the descriptions of where Wittmanns Tiger was knocked out differ greatly and one of the most exchaustively researched accounts account by Dan Taylor puts that place as being near to the D6 Tilly junction not the location suggested by Agte and the recent Heimdal production.

Pat Dyas was actually in a Cromwell as were most of A Sq 4 CLY and the HQ Tanks , the only Shermans were at point 213 or with B Sq , Sgt Stan Lockwood for exapmle who stopped Wittmans advance through VB . The only other Sherman in VB initially was a Sherman OP Tank from 5 RHA.

**CINDERSII** · 06-27-2017, 10:58 AM

Either way despite what AFV Pat (I was going off the video of the interview with Pat) was in the cold hard fact is that he faced Wittmanns Tiger at a 100yds range and was completely outclassed by Witmanns gunner Bobby Woll who was a veteran (I think he was awarded the knights cross pretty rare for a gunner apparently.)
Pat was lucky to have survived the 88mm hit.

**Paul D** · 06-27-2017, 05:38 PM

by CINDERSII

Either way despite what AFV Pat (I was going off the video of the interview with Pat) was in the cold hard fact is that he faced Wittmanns Tiger at a 100yds range and was completely outclassed by Witmanns gunner Bobby Woll who was a veteran (I think he was awarded the knights cross pretty rare for a gunner apparently.)
Pat was lucky to have survived the 88mm hit.

Another of the VB myths that Bobby Woll was his Gunner , No evidence exists that Woll was at VB on the 13/6/1944 . Pat Dyas backed off the main road to escape the advancing Tiger and when it passed could have put a shot into the Tigers flank , however his gunner was out tof the Cromwell abluting at the time , Pat then reorganised his crew and pulled out into the street hoping to hit the Tiger in the rear but by then Witmann had turned round after his duel with Lockwoods Firefly and was heading back up the street when the two tanks met head on , the Cromwell standing no chance against the Tiger .

**Martin Bull** · 06-27-2017, 06:34 PM

The 'Bobby Woll' myth stems, I think, from Paul Carell's account in the 60s and it is now generally agreed that Woll was certainly not at V-B. His 'they think they've won already' quote is also very likely imaginative and lives on - repeated most recently in Antony Beevor's book.

There is indeed a lot of confusion as to where Wittmann's attack started from and, with no Kriegsberichter handy, it will now probably be argued ad infinitum. Sadly, the development of the AutoRoute has altered the immediate area......finding the remaining bit of the Ancienne Route did at least bring me some of the 'battlefield atmosphere' that I'm always seeking. Somehow, standing in the middle of a modern roundabout (although possibly more accurate) just didn't do it for me !

**Paul D** · 06-27-2017, 07:10 PM

Your quire correct Martin thew myth probably came from Carrel as did the quote , as you say repeated by Beevor as well as Wittmann returning to VB in the afternoon for the second attack by Mobius's 1 Kompanie . For an author writing in 2014 those errors are inexcusable and how the myths are still beleived is beyond me .

I like Beevor's previous work Stalingrad / Berlin but his Normandy book i'm afraid is a pretty poor effort for someone of his talents that brought nothing knew to the study of the Battle of Normandy . I can only conclude that he employed some very average researchers !

The Battlefield has been changed by the Autoroute on the approach to point 213 but around the Hill is pretty much the same although the actual position of the Tigers prior to the attack is difficult to aceratin on the Anciente route .