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Remains of LIBERATOR

Article about: Great work Bob! best rgds, Ty

  1. #11
    OKW
    ?

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Stalin had a policy that all Soviet personnel taken by Axis forces, whether p.o.w, forced labour, volunteer labour or Axis forces were to be repatriated to the USSR whether they wanted to go or not. As Allied POW camps were over run by Red army forces the 'liberated' prisoners were removed eastward to places of 'safety'. There were then placed obstacles in their path of repatriation so that they were virtually held hostage, your people for ours kind of thing. Even as groups allied personnels security was not safe. Individuals picked up by soviet forces fared even less well with an army quick to shoot its own troops never mind axis pow. So a certain number would have disappeared off the radar one way or another. Bearing in mind that soviet citizens returned by the western powers, even if being in axis hands were no fault of their own, were sentenced to 25 years Siberian time. The soviet system being a large un wieldy bureaucratic monolith was slow to move and even more reluctant to admit its mistakes so if an allied serviceman ended up in the gulag his chances of re appearing to spill the beans in the new cold war era were remote. Stalin when questioned about the missing 20000 Polish officers taken prisoner by Russia following its invasion of Poland in 1939, some who surfaced at Kaytan, said "ah we made a mistake there." The subject was dropped by the U.K and U.S governments if not by the Free Polish Government in exile in London. Much good that did them. When returning to Poland for 'free' elections under Stalins Guarantee of safe conduct they to were wisked away to Moscow and murdered.
    Having said that there are records of allied personnel being reasonably well treated by Russian forces. Stamford Tuck ,in fly for your life, gives a description of being with soviet forces following his liberation. He eventually got home. The pianist didn't.

  2. #12
    Rick
    ?

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Well thanks for that guys it has opened a new route of reading for me, i knew he didnt play fair but thats a bit extreme.

    Regards
    Rick

  3. #13
    ?

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Yes the main problem that in any cases allied lost a friendship with USSR, howewer if they'll keep of all the ROA and Cossacks etc they will get in that case a very good ally in face of them.
    In other case all the cossacks was shot by NKVD troops with mashineguns, over the trains, after the crossing board with USSR. Even one temporarily camp was somewhere in Estonia, where they shot for approx 2000 former ROA officers and NCOs
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  4. #14
    Rick
    ?

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    My view was probably formed by the story a vet told me, captured at Dunkirk he remeined in pow camps, mainly mines untill his liberation by the red army .in 45, he did add that they supplied him with a weapon and expected him to mow down captured German troops. for fear of his own life he shot above the heads. After reading stories of pow's after the war in the Russian work camps they were probably the lucky ones.


    Rick

  5. #15

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    First; thanks to all for your opinions on this tread.
    It is a strog posibility that the plain we talk about ,have been hiten
    over Villach, wich had in that time very strong FLAK positions and its only cca. 20 km avay from crashing point.
    Second; there were never any SOVIETS in that places ,they were at least 300 km away.There were only a few people hidinig themselves in a wood ,from recruiting to all german fronts by german police.
    In may 1945 this places were liberated by Titos partisans and British army.


    Anyway ,it looks the destiny and names of a brave crew stil become a big quest for me and others ,who have interes on this problem,prticualy that natives wich live nearby.MACR is very short about it.


    CHEERS

    Matilda

  6. #16

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Wow this thread is just amazing as they say you learn something new everyday,in fact everytime I log on

  7. #17
    ?

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Quote by matilda View Post
    First; thanks to all for your opinions on this tread.
    It is a strog posibility that the plain we talk about ,have been hiten
    over Villach, wich had in that time very strong FLAK positions and its only cca. 20 km avay from crashing point.
    Second; there were never any SOVIETS in that places ,they were at least 300 km away.There were only a few people hidinig themselves in a wood ,from recruiting to all german fronts by german police.
    In may 1945 this places were liberated by Titos partisans and British army.


    Anyway ,it looks the destiny and names of a brave crew stil become a big quest for me and others ,who have interes on this problem,prticualy that natives wich live nearby.MACR is very short about it.


    CHEERS

    Matilda
    Agreed, I think Soviet army was more than 300 km away, Vienna at least
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  8. #18

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    I have made inquiries to discover if this crash site is known to US authorities. If not, they will likely wish to visit the site and search for remains of the crew. I will update this thread with any information received.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    The internet is amazing. Here is a follow up I just received:

    Hi Bob,



    According to the information that I have, all of the crew was accounted for after the crash. Of the 11 crewmembers, 4 were KIA. They were recovered from the crash and buried in the cemetery at Altersberg, Community of Trebesing, Austria. The remains were repatriated after the war. The 7 remaining crewmembers were taken prisoner (not sure if any subsequently escaped). Here’s a listing:



    Pilot Labovitz Jack O 2nd Lt RTD

    Co-pilot Keirns Harry A 2nd Lt RTD

    Navigator Tilghman Raymond T 2nd Lt RTD

    Bombardier Lipton Richard M 2nd Lt RTD

    Eng Gun McMahon John J Sgt RTD

    Radio/Gun Fedora John (NMI) Sgt KIA

    Arm Gun Harrigan Joseph J Sgt KIA

    Arm Gun Rockwell Francis I Sgt KIA

    Arm Gun Tuttle Ernest A Sgt RTD

    Arm Gun Silverman Edward L Sgt KIA

    Photographer Chapman William H S/Sgt RTD

    (RTD = Returned to Duty)



    B-24J-195-CO S/N 44-41105 was named “MISS MARJORIE” (although the MACR list it as “MISS MARGORIE,” which may be a typo). The aircraft was with the 743rd BS. I hope this helps!



    Regards,



    Dave Ungemach



    Shortly after receipt of this email, Dave sent me a follow up:

    Bob,



    Just to double-check, I went to the NARA and ABMC sites. Although the German KU report shows Sgt Silverman as KIA and temporarily buried at Altersberg, the NARA shows an FOD (Finding of Death), which means that he may not have been recovered. I’ll check to see if I can find anything else.



    The other KIAs are accounted for (Fedora is buried at Lorraine, Harrigan and Rockwell at Ardennes).
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Wow, great follow-up and results as well!
    [B][COLOR=Black][SIZE=3][FONT=Book Antiqua][I] Steve[/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

    [CENTER][I][FONT=Georgia][COLOR=orange]Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [/I][/CENTER]
    [B]
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=lemonchiffon][I][CENTER][FONT=Georgia]"Fly on dear boy, from this dark world of strife. On to the promised land to eternal life"[/FONT][/CENTER]
    [/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

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