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Remains of LIBERATOR

Article about: Great work Bob! best rgds, Ty

  1. #41

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Dear Friends,

    In my opinion these parts belonged to different types. The cylinder - in corner - is came from a radial engine, and it looks like as a cylinder of a M-82 engine. On the left side, a Shvak gun can be seen. In my opinion it is highly probably, that these parts and the control column and the lone tailwheel - beside of the cylinder - belonged to a Lavochkin La-5 fighter sometime.

    I could not establish the identification of the largest tailwheel, but I think it came from a bomber or a ground attack plane.


  2. #42

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    On the 60-th anniversary of the crash a small memorial was erected on the foot of the hill where Liberator crashed (see notice in Slovene language: Spomenik zavezni)

    According to that notice plane crashed on Nov 22nd 1944, around 13:00 hours, hitting the rocks of mountain Jalovec (the fifth highest mountain in Slovenia with 2645 m). Crew jumped out just before the crash trying to land to the saddle Kotovo sedlo (approx 2100 m). It is believed that all men but one were shot by German soldiers while still in the air (according to some other testimonies four more men survived, they were captured by Germans and taken to camps). The survivor was David Holdsworth, gunner. He managed to hide until dusk, then after some adventures he managed to find contact with local partisans.

    Reusable parts of the plane were transported to valley and reused by local people, bigger parts are being slowly pushed down with natural processes, some smaller parts can still be found on the spot.


  3. #43

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    Unfortunately, that was not the case. Many POW camps in Eastern Europe holding US military personel were liberated by Soviet forces and marched East where they were used as slave labor or exploited for their technical skills. None of these individuals ever were repatriated to their homeland.
    Michael Constandy, who has Westmorland Research in the Washington DC area, began his first research project looking for what had become of a great uncle who was declared missing in Eastern Europe as a USAAF crew member. He found in German records that he had been held in a POW camp that had been "liberated" by the Soviets. After the fall of Communism in Russia, Mike was able to search the old Soviet records and found his uncle had been executed in either 1949 or 1950.
    Germans and other Axis prisoners were not the only victims of Uncle Joe Stalin. When it came to murder, his regime made the Nazis look like beginers.
    Let us also not forget the case of the Swedish diplomat, Raoul Wallenberg, in Hungary who was taken by Soviet forces at the end of the war and never seen again. He was held in Lubianka Prison until his death in the mid 90's. Others say he was executed in 1947. For more information, Raoul Wallenberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Whoopsie... sorry but you are mistaken. When it came to wholesale depraved murder of entire populations the Nazis made even Uncle Joe look like an amature...

    Hitler vs. Stalin: Who Was Worse? by Timothy Snyder | NYRBlog | The New York Review of Books

  4. #44

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Quote by matilda View Post
    On 22.11.1944 a B 24 J fall down in nearest mountin saddle of my native willage,in a beautifull well known (ski - jump)wally Planica -Tamar, nearby italian border on cca. 2200 m high point.
    I and a few of my history buff friends ,visit that place allmost every year,when the snow desapere in summer, and it is a very nice trip ,enjojing every time on diffrent way. Reserching the crash point ,always bring something new and a four hours of walk,(mountiniring) is quickly forgotten. There are stil so many intresting things there.

    Here is some pics of remains

    Now an ask for a help ,to you fellow colectors and autoritis on tihs forum.

    The plain (what do I know)

    Liberator B-24 j No 44-41055 of 455 bg San Giovanni Chernigola Italy.

    Crashed on 22. 11.1944 in Tamar SLOVENIJA form. YUGOSLAVIA.

    I want to know ;

    1. Names and the destiny of the crew.
    2. Name of the plane.
    3. Any other informatin
    4.Any kind of source forthis answers

    I ll be gratefull for every answer!
    Are you still interested in this information. I can provide some of it to you:

    Pilot Labovitz Jack O 2nd Lt RTD
    Co-pilot Keirns Harry A 2nd Lt RTD
    Navigator Tilghman Raymond T 2nd Lt RTD
    Bombardier Lipton Richard M 2nd Lt RTD
    Eng Gun McMahon John J Sgt RTD
    Radio/Gun Fedora John (NMI) Sgt KIA
    Arm Gun Harrigan Joseph J Sgt KIA
    Arm Gun Rockwell Francis I Sgt KIA
    Arm Gun Tuttle Ernest A Sgt RTD
    Arm Gun Silverman Edward L Sgt KIA
    Photographer Chapman William H S/Sgt RTD
    (RTD = Returned to Duty)

    B-24J-195-CO S/N 44-41105 was named “MISS MARJORIE” (although the MACR list it as “MISS MARGORIE,” which may be a typo). The aircraft was with the 743rd BS.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Ray Tilghman is my Father-in-Law. He bailed out of the plane, broke a leg on the tail of the plane as he bailed and parachuted safely to the ground. He was captured by the germans and spent 9 months in Stalag POW camp. He and others escaped when the germans abandoned the camp when the allies were approaching. He made it to safety and returned to Washington, DC where he lived. He later married and moved to La Plata, Maryland, had three girls and ran Tilghman's TBA selling auto parts. He was active in politics and retired in approximately 2000. He died at age 79 in July 2002 following surgery.
    Mr. Tilghman remained friends with Harry Keirns whom I believe is still living down south somewhere. Sure would be nice to see the plane in person!
    Roy Hancock

  6. #46

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    My Name is Richard M. Lipton and I just discovered this website and thought I'd share my story. I was the bombardier on this ill fated flight that you all are talking about. To start off with, this was not my original crew as the bombardier for this crew could not make the flight so I was called up. On November 22, 1944 we took off from Italy and our flight was going to Munich, Germany, when we encountered bad weather. We found ourselves to be the only plane headed in that direction. I knew that we were in for trouble! We got as far as Austria, and then we decided to turn around and head for home. Since I was the bombardier, I had to pick a target to drop our bombs. We decided on Salzberg, Austria as it was the biggest target where we were. The target was the marshalling/railroad yards. After dropping the bombs, we were attacked by Messerschmitt Me 110's. The pilot rang the emergency bell to bail out. I pulled the nose gunner out of his compartment and opened up the nose wheel so we could escape the plane. I landed on the top of a mountain in Austria and walked for 24 hours till I was captured by the Germans. I was sent to a prison in Frankfurt, Germany and interrogated for a week since I was the bombardier and they wanted information on the Norden bombsight...which I refused to give them! I only gave them my name, rank and serial number. I was sent to Stalig Luft III in Zagan, Poland. I was one of two Americans in a mainly British POW Camp called Belaria. On January 27th, we left there because the Russians were attacking from the east and I ended up in another camp in Nuremberg, Germany. I was there for two months and then the the Americans were attacking from the west, so we walked 100 or so miles and ended up in another camp in Moosburg, Germany. About three weeks later, on April 29, 1945, I was liberated by General Patton. My weight at that time was down to 112 lbs. due to the lack of food and extremely harsh conditions that we encountered. Even though this was not my original crew, I would like to know if anyone else is still alive that was on that plane with me. I would enjoy hearing from anyone who has other information on this mission.
    Warm Regards,
    Richard M. Lipton
    Last edited by Richard M Lipton; 07-07-2012 at 10:50 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    what an amazing epilogue for this fantastic thread! I am very glad to hear that Mr Lipton managed to survive the crash and is well. Thanks for sharing your story


  8. #48

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Hitler vs. Stalin: Who Was Worse? by Timothy Snyder = Revisionist rubbish

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  9. #49

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Mr. Lipton,

    It is an honor to have you here on the forum. It is the stories of particpants such as yourself that give us a better understanding of what really happened.

    Best regards from your neighbor in Hayward Ca, Tyrone

  10. #50

    Default Re: Remains of LIBERATOR

    Hi Mr Lipton, thank you very much indeed for sharing your story with us. And a warm welcome to the forum.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

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