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Stolen map and letter from shot down stuka pilot wolfgang vagler's tank buster stuka ace!

Article about: I am pretty upset right now, a few weeks ago, I discovered that a map that I was given by the family of Wolfgang Vagler, who was a tank buster ace and flew wing man for his Commanding Office

  1. #11
    MAP
    MAP is online now
    ?

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    Good luck in your quest and recover of the map. But as Phil and Ralph has stated, not much anyone can do without pictures. And that is only if the person who took the map tried to sell it. But from what I gather, since they took only the map, it looks like they have other motives than profit/selling it so very probably it will not see the light of day unless you recover it directly from the person.

    And if you do recover the map, is this wreckage in such a remote location that it is likely not to have been found already after 70+ years? If the pilot managed to land the plane (albeit perishing in the process), I would assume it was in an area that would not conceal the plane. And is the map a guide to the location of the plane? Or just a standard map with a dot? (i.e. who put the "dot" on the map and what does it represent).

    I'm sure you have thought all this through and know more than what I have read. So, don't take this as a dismissal but more of query.

    Also, if you have his other medals and dagger, we would love to see them.

    Regards,

    M
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

  2. #12

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    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    Unfortunately, thieves are usually friends of some one you know.
    Man, isn't that the truth...

  3. #13

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    lucky you.

    - - ------- - -

    Quote by Larboard View Post
    People steal things from me all the time, one time it was a sledgehemmer, found it a year later in the wrong place... then it was a tap & die set, had to buy another one, then it turned up, tucked away in some weird place, sometimes it's keys, sometimes it's a wallet...

    Happens to my neighbors too, just yesterday one was telling how he couldn't find either one of his axes "for days", then they turned up.

    Sometimes people steal things, then bring them back.
    ............. lucky you.

  4. #14

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    Quote by Larboard View Post
    Man, isn't that the truth...
    70% of all burglaries are committed by someone that knows you.

  5. #15

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    Quote by MAP View Post
    Good luck in your quest and recover of the map. But as Phil and Ralph has stated, not much anyone can do without pictures. And that is only if the person who took the map tried to sell it. But from what I gather, since they took only the map, it looks like they have other motives than profit/selling it so very probably it will not see the light of day unless you recover it directly from the person.

    And if you do recover the map, is this wreckage in such a remote location that it is likely not to have been found already after 70+ years? If the pilot managed to land the plane (albeit perishing in the process), I would assume it was in an area that would not conceal the plane. And is the map a guide to the location of the plane? Or just a standard map with a dot? (i.e. who put the "dot" on the map and what does it represent).

    I'm sure you have thought all this through and know more than what I have read. So, don't take this as a dismissal but more of query.

    Also, if you have his other medals and dagger, we would love to see them.

    Regards,

    M
    as I stated, I have his medals, some photos of him, and the plane, I HAD a letter from his Commanding Officer explaining what happened to him. As well as that, the map was from the Commanding officer/Squadron Leader that he flew wing man for. He did not crash land the plane, he landed perfectly, he hit something on the ground, like a rock, etc, and the plane nose dived into the ground. He was impaled on the stick. How do I know it still exists out there? Well, I dont, except for the fact that his body has never been recovered, and most people that find bodies, etc, up there, report them to the authorities, and the German govt/Russian govt, so that the missing person is noted, and they bury them in a military cemetery. Since that has not happened, it is highly likely that it has not been found. The German recon troops did not take him, they rescued the news reporter and left him behind. He is in the woods in the middle of nowhere. I did do a google search for the exact location, so if worse comes to worse, I can try to find it on one of my computers, but that is going to take a long time, and there is no guarantee that I will be able to find it. I have only known for a couple of weeks that it was missing, I am / was planning on coming over and looking for it this spring. It is in the woods now, so yes, it will be hidden pretty well, but as I said, it did not impact into the ground at high speed, so the plane is still in tact, and he is still in the cock pit. I dont have his dagger. I dont know how to post pictures on here, but would be happy to share those with you guys. His commander put the dot on the map, and it is just a simple printed map, in German. It is not a hand drawn thing, etc,.... German maps of the times are not exact, this was not Germany, so not everything is exact. If I had pictures of the map, why would I be pissed off that it is missing? The map isnt the story, the location is........ I have her husband's dagger, not this man's. It is just a Luftwaffe 2nd model, nothing too impressive. Here is a little bit more of his story. After he was killed, his medals went with the unit, to Denmark. I assume they retreated to Denmark, and there, they surrendered eventually. The Danish govt. would not just give the family the medals, they made this cousin go there, and pay $10, U.S. currency, for his German Cross in Gold. Why? I dont know, but she had a hell of a time coming up with U.S. dollars, which took days. She did not say how she got them,.... but I assume it was not any nice kind of way. She did not want to say, and I didnt ask her. But, she came up with the cash, and they let her have the medals. They meant the world to her. Even though she had a husband that flew longer, more missions, and was shot down 5 times, and never wounded, the cousin meant more to her, up until the post her husband passed away. She had his uniform, and the photo albums of both of these men, which I would have given my left nut for, she said she was going to give those to her kids, because they belonged to their family. That is what I collect, but could not ask her for them. I took what she offered me, and that was it. As for the guy who talked about his sledge hammer being stolen and then found it later, I have had issues similar, but as big of a mess as my house is, it is just me and a dog,.... and she isnt moving anything around, and everything is placed, exactly where I put it, until I move it. I would love to think that someone moved it, playing games, but I dont really feel like believing that right now. I am a very private person, and I do not let anyone come in my house, my own family does not come in my house. Very rare. But, it is possible. But the fact remains, if there are only 10 people that have ever seen it, it is one of those 10 people that are the only ones that would know what it is. It does not have anything written on it,............ it is a military map, in German,... a foreign language, of cities that are not called the same thing, in other languages...... they are named in German only. The map has a dot marked on it..... kinda like, "X marks the spot",..... and it goes with a letter, that was taken at an earlier date. I have had issues with a cop, not sure what his deal is, but he did a "no no", and I caught him on it, and I called him out on it, and it has given me a very strong distrust of the police. That is a seperate issue, but it is not out of the realm of possibility. It would be a very bad move on his part, to have any kind of involvement in something like this. Tell me how to post pics on here, and I will tack a few pictures on here for you guys.

    - - ------- - -

    they are not going to try to sell it, they are going to try to use it.............

  6. #16

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    Quote by Larboard View Post
    People steal things from me all the time, one time it was a sledgehemmer, found it a year later in the wrong place... then it was a tap & die set, had to buy another one, then it turned up, tucked away in some weird place, sometimes it's keys, sometimes it's a wallet...

    Happens to my neighbors too, just yesterday one was telling how he couldn't find either one of his axes "for days", then they turned up.

    Sometimes people steal things, then bring them back.
    hopefully it will turn up. i am ready for this quest. will work on straightening up my house, and maybe it got moved, but not by me. and the letter has not turned up either. it was taken from my mother's house. a different location. i have been screwed with by a few authorities, so maybe..... but i dont want to count on anything like that. I noticed it was not where it was supposed to be 2 weeks ago, and so i am trying to put the word out. if i find it "moved" around in my house, great..... all the better.

  7. #17

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    There will be precious little left of any aircraft after 70 or more years left in the open in a severe climate like the Baltic states have-freezing winters with heavy snow and warm if brief summers with plants growing up and through the wreckage-similarly with human remains unless the pilot was buried by the rescue party if they had the time to do so. The engine block is the most likely to survive in a recognizable condition but will be buried by the accumulation of debris over 7 decades by now.

  8. #18

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    Quote by AZPhil View Post
    Have you reported it to the authorities along with your suspicion on who might have stolen it?
    One other thought is that this is a site with international members. What continent/country/state this took place in would also be of some interest.
    Semper Fi
    Phil
    It has been reported to the local authorities, it is a piece of paper to them.... just another report. I typed out a bunch more stuff, but had to reload the page, so they vanished. ugh..... it was taken in Bloomington, Indiana, midwest, U.S.A., it could be "misplaced", but I did not misplace it. I have had a hand full of jealous people, who tried to steal another thing I had, I just sold this past year, the last of the "unknown" nazi Field Marshal Batons. It was the intrim baton of Field Marshal Werner von Blomberg. His parade baton is the centerpiece to the Smithsonian Institute's entire WWII collection. This piece is a sore spot with me, I wont cry baby about it on here, but I will say that the auction company did everything they could, to make it sell for the least amount of money possible. They cheated me 10 different ways, ... I shit you not. I am not finished with them, I would like to stand in front of their tables and pass out a sheet, explaining exactly how they cheated me, to everyone that stops and looks at their wares. That is a different story though. They will get theirs. I would enjoy passing out fliers, to help keep others from being burned by their games.

  9. #19

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    No photos of the map Gents as i can understand Mr Thors Concerns..that dot on the map may lead to something buried. X marks the spot.
    Without Photos...which I understand your buried concerns,,,nothing more that the members above can offer you.

    Hopefully the forums Resident Archaeological Researcher Big Ned can shed some light in a positive direction. .
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #20

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    Jeez, thrown under the bus again..... I'm still working closely with my Polish agents on the Gold Train dig at the moment so this one will have to wait for the foreseeable future I'm afraid.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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