Allach Porcelain

[tonys]

Here is a comparison between the marking on a piece of the AH dinnerware and an authentic mark.

You can see a few things from this:

The authentic green marks were always stamped on - not painted.

The authentic mark has sharp defined edges - especially on the runes.


To see this though, you would have to have a magnifying glass or a loupe.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Tony, I can see a big difference between those marks. Thanks for showing them.

I know we have talked about this tea service before when the issue was raised on WAF and you know my feeling on it. I would not feel comfy with it if it were in my collection. I know it came from Rob (who is a member here too) and he is a first class, straight up guy. He got it from Robin as you know. I would honestly return it and I would recommend Rob do the same. This would be my impartial advice to both of you, whom I consider friends.

Cheers, Ade.

[tonys]

Here is another piece not often seen. The white version of the lamb is quite common but the colored version is quite rare.

[tonys]

Hi Phil,

On what basis is he standing by it? The marks are obviously fake.

However, when you by from an individual collector they may not be in a position to make a refund on an item. It's always a risk you take. I've been caught myself......

I'll see if I can get Kris Lindblom to get involved - he ABSOLUTELY HATES it when people get taken. If it came from Robin Lumsden originally maybe he needs to be pulled into the discussion as well.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Phil, I am sorry to hear that Chris will not give you a refund.

Like Tony says it is a danger when buying privatly.

As I see it, Chris has these options:

1) Still say they are original and offer no refund.

2) Read the thread and acknowledge they are bad, but not be in a financial position to make a refund. In that case, he would then need to go after a refund himself.

Cheers, Ade.

[tonys]

Well £600 is not exactly a small amount of money. You could have a very nice original piece of Allach for that amount.

[K.Lindblom]

To all party's that have interest.

I am Kris Lindblom and I wrote the post on the Hitler dinnerware originally and had looked at it for many years with scrutiny based on the original sellers when it originally hit the market. It was not until much later that further study led to the tell tale attributes that gave me what I needed to make a call.

It sat on my desk for some time as I did not want to post it due to the personalties who had sold some of the pieces and the collectors who owned them. I am not one to try and crush someone else's items. But this situation is somewhat unique in that these pieces were widely accepted in the hobby. There were certainly detractors but nothing put forth with any basic of fact or study.

I had e-mailed several individuals about these items prior to posting it and had spoken to a couple others in person as to whether the information should go up. Robin Lumsden was not contacted by me prior to posting the information and I know that he felt that these were in fact original. And they got by a lot of people for quite some time. 10 years I believe.

Due to all the bad dinnerware that was and is coming to market, and a 3rd variant of the Hitler dinnerware as well, I did not feel I had much of a choice as the market was poised to take on more unwitting collectors.

What makes this unique and the reason I have reservations in regards to refunds and dealer sales prior to the post in question was that unlike every other aspect of the hobby, the only reference on Allach is 40 years old and it does not go into the nuances and specifics of markings and styles. There is essentially no information to use as a defense against bad pieces. And it has only been within the lat few years that these pieces have really started showing up. The only exception is the A.H dinnerware. The only reason that came about is because I followed it from day one and handled the pieces at every opportunity along with all the real pieces I was looking at.

So, even though there were some detractors that were in the know or experienced with Allach, they were essentially ignored early on by the market and a lack of a specific study to back up their contentions that these pieces were bad.

Now, the issue is pretty convoluted. As there was no reference and no way for a seller to tell they were bad and therefore no way for a collector to know unless he really looked hard. As for all practical purposes the marking is textbook, its the textbook that lacks.

I am not sure I can place blame with a seller with the exception of the original sellers, who clearly had a hand in it. Anyone else requires the buyer to speculate as to what was known by whom and when.

In short, I think its a no fault issue and refunds or broken friendships are not worth the trouble. Hopefully the losses will be minimal, but at some point we have to take some responsibility for our purchases as collectors. In this case it is a tough call.

Kind Regards,

Kris Lindblom

[tonys]

Thanks Kris. Well put.

I agree it might be hard to get refunds on this AH dinnerware - especially when a lot of collectors are still convinced it is authentic.

Kris makes some very good points on why this is fake.

Comparison of the markings is a good place to start. None of the dinnerware sets makes the grade when the markings are compared to other original pieces of Allach with the green marks.

I'm betting if you brought that up with the guys selling it, the excuse would be something like - "but this was done specially for Hitler so it would not be stamped on like the ordinary items. It was specially hand painted just for Hitler"

The fact there are now three sets of this "Allach" Adolf Hitler dinnerware on the market, all different, raises some really serious red flags.

Lets see "we heard Allach had three different artists work on it and were going to give Hitler the set they thought was the best"

I'm not intending to make fun of the situation but some of the dealers selling these have equally riduclous descriptions and tall tales on their websites.

[K.Lindblom]

The argument that I have always waited to hear was that they were late war and with production being hampered by the war effort was cause for deviations. No one has tried that one yet.

The reality is although Allach and Bohemia both had issues with labor, there were no real deviations in quality, there were just less pieces. To say you found 300 pieces in the original Allach building is insane.

All pieces were stamped, whether it be green or impressed, this is evident in the highest production #s to date including the highest which was #171. So even though they stopped at #100 in 38/39 they still managed to generate at least 71 new models and produce pieces.

The use of transfers was just not done on presentations, and 2 variant transfers on 3 variants of dinnerware??? and I mean the porcelain and the style.

And Charlie Snyder and Germania were there to get in on that?? The allies busted that place up, molds, figures, you name it they broke it.

You have soldiers in the direct proximity of the Dachau labor camp, I'm sure they were taken aback. I mean lets face it, allies liberated Meissen Red Dragon pattern china, knives, forks, silver and anything that was not nailed down.

300 pieces of dinnerware to Hitler in their path, and it go's untouched only to be discovered 50 years later by these characters.

That alone is enough for me, the pieces on their own is whole different ball game.

[kingtiger]

Here are a few pieces in a small collection I have amassed over the last several years.