Wittmann Tiger Normandie.

[Paul D]

Exactly Dan , the name of the farmer isn't given and some of the relics are different ,much credance is given to the floor pan but if you notice the farmer says that much of what is examined in the documentary has come from the field and " could " have come from 007 although there were 4 Tigers knocked out in that field , yet Christie immediately implies that in fact it " did " come from Wittmanns tank .

I am aware of someone in Normandy who supposedly also has parts of 007 .

The title of the Black Baron is also of post war manufacture from sensasionalist authors and documentary makers.

[Danmark]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh?

"Wittmann actually stood on this? ".... WOW!!!!

[Martin Bull]

It's become a standard joke between myself and another Forum member - I'm still looking for that elusive piece of Tiger, signed by Wittmann (preferably in indelible felt-tipped pen...)

[Watchdog]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh?

"Wittmann actually stood on this? ".... WOW!!!!

My view exactly!

I think "legend" is exactly the right word to use when describing the career of Wittman in general and the Normandy episode in particular.

The Christie documentary was much more explicit than any other I have seen for all it's faults and above all it put real context to an incident that has descended into modern folklore. Most people who recount the tale seem to be preoccupied with the destruction of three Tigers destroyed by the single British gunner Joe EKINS and that the three included the famous WITTMAN.

These same recounters never seem to mention the fact that there were four Tigers in that action and I don't think (correct me please) that EKINS ever claimed to have neutralised WITTMAN or even a fourth Tiger. We know that WITTMAN was at the rear of his section but that is exactly where the section commander should have been. If he wasn't how could he see his other callsigns, which he needed to do in order to work them effectively? So no need to argue that one.

What EKINS did was to engage and destroy three extremely potent tanks in a very short space of time at the extreme range of his weapon system. This would be considered "good arrows" by the standards and with the equipment of today and it is a matter of record that none of the Tiger crews involved were able to take out the one Firefly that was bitting them so badly or we would not have this tale to chew over now!.
The fourth Tiger (WITTMAN) would have been out of range and It seems credible that EKINS didn't even see it.

What Christie makes clear is something which seems to have been "airbrushed" from many accounts, that the Sherbrookes were far closer to WITMAN and in a far better position to take him out. The nuts and bolts of what actually did for that Tiger will likely remain a subject of conjecture. However, destroyed it was! Whether the known relics actually came from a specific tank in a group of four will always be a matter of debate, even argument, and to me at least somewhat irrelevant. Tank crews often occupied replacement vehicles so this is not like a personal possession such as a hat or smoking pipe etc.

The lyonisation of WITTMAN is something typical of war histories and probably something neccessary to allow the masses to in some way quantify and qualify the unspeakable nature of warfare by telling tales of "derring do". WITTMAN was just a soldier, a very good one, but one who without any influence on his part, caught what we now call "the eye of the media" and became something of a poster boy. There were other soldiers as good if not better on all sides but their names are lost in anonymity. If WITTMAN was the man he is presented as I doubt he would be very pleased with the label "hero".

That said, this is still a tale of an epic small unit engagement of which I have not yet tired. So what if there is a little "guilding the lily"? That is what war stories usually are. Just as long as the operative word to use is "legend" and not "myth" (eg the trainload of gold buried under a mountain )

Regards

Mark

[The Devil's Bank]

"The destruction of three Tigers destroyed by the single British gunner Joe EKINS and that the three included the famous WITTMAN."

A couple of things about the demise of Tiger 007 that have me interested are :

1. Why was 007's Turret out of it's ring and hanging down to the right?

The ammunition exploded and blew the Turret off. So what hit the Tiger to dislodge the Turret?

Could a AP Round knock a Turret out of it's housing?

2. Joe Ekins fired and destroyed three Tigers.. Supposedly Tigers 009 (Dollinger) 312 (Kisters) and 314 (Iriohn).

Ekins said after his second shot one Tiger Turret exploded??

The only Tiger to explode was Wittmanns..??

Could the sequence of events be slightly distorted in the heat of battle?

If two Tigers exploded? surely this would have been reported??

So, could the events be slightly different to what we know?

Did Ekins destroy Tiger 007? and did 007 blow up earlier than was first thought?

Did Ekins see 007 explode and thought it was his shot?

Will we ever find out?

Joe Ekins - Telegraph

[Watchdog]

"The destruction of three Tigers destroyed by the single British gunner Joe EKINS and that the three included the famous WITTMAN."

A couple of things about the demise of Tiger 007 that have me interested are :

1. Why was 007's Turret out of it's ring and hanging down to the right?

The ammunition exploded and blew the Turret off. So what hit the Tiger to dislodge the Turret?

Could a AP Round knock a Turret out of it's housing?

2. Joe Ekins fired and destroyed three Tigers.. Supposedly Tigers 009 (Dollinger) 312 (Kisters) and 314 (Iriohn).

Ekins said after his second shot one Tiger Turret exploded??

The only Tiger to explode was Wittmanns..??

Could the sequence of events be slightly distorted in the heat of battle?

If two Tigers exploded? surely this would have been reported??

So, could the events be slightly different to what we know?

Did Ekins destroy Tiger 007? and did 007 blow up earlier than was first thought?

Did Ekins see 007 explode and thought it was his shot?

Will we ever find out?

Joe Ekins - Telegraph

It is highly unlikely that the round that hit the Tiger was actually the cause of the turret being lifted off. That requires the very high pressure of an explosion inside the crew compartment greater than that of even a HEAT round, EG exploding ammunition stored inside the crew compartment. An AP round would not do this as it is basically solid.
The use of the word "exploded" would appear subjective rather than objective and when any armoured vehicle with a turret suffers a 'K' kill to the main compartment it is not unusual for a sheet or plume of flame and smoke to "explode" from the turret through one or more of the cupola hatches. In such circumstances one might describe the turret as having exploded yet it remains in place so the vehicle later appears suprficially intact.

The fouth tank destroyed by EKINS was in a subsequent engagement and is not reported to have been a Tiger.

As for the position of the dismounted turret of 007 in the surviving photographs I think this can only be considered evidential if the images are dated. Even then if there is any significant interval between images of the turret in different positions to the hull the explanation could be absolutely anything from a secondary hit up to and including the actions of persons on the field after the battle including salvagers.

In the end EKINS had other things on his mind than this later day debate and seeing the above described sheet of flam was likely all he would recall.

Regards

Mark

[Paul D]

This discussion is heading into areas that I have discussed with groups on a number of occasions on the ground in Normandy and Mark has made some excellent points . The problem is that as a Battlefield Guide it’s important to bring all the facts to the table and also the ex cop in me makes me look for the actual evidence that is available to prove the case one way or the other ! Christie himself either didn’t research properly or ignored some of the real evidence to fit in with his theory and programme.
Wittmann lead 5 Tigers forward on that morning on the east side of the Caen / Falaise road with two others commanded by Hans Hoflinger ( Ops Officer ) and Rolf von Westernhagen ( Brother of the Bn Commander Hein ) just to the west of the road to Wittmans left.
Of all the accounts of what happened Hoflinger provides the most detailed , he confirms a radio message from Wittmann that he was receiving Anti Tank fire from the Right prior to being hit himself , Hoflinger saw Wittmanns tank with the turret displaced to the side . Altogether 5 Tigers were knocked out those of Wittmann , Iriohn , Dollinger , Hoflinger and Kisters . Hoflingers being knocked out on the western side of the road the other 4 on the eastern side..
What Christie coveniently ignores is that from the claimed positions of the Sherbrookes they would have had Hoflingers and Von Westernhagens Tigers advancing directly towards them on the western side of the road so that threat would have surely been the priority ! Hoflinger makes no mention of taking fire from the front or his left flank or engaging any allied tanks in those areas , his only concern was , as was Wittmanns the fire from the right flank , although Hoflinger does not clarify from whence came the round that knocked him out. He also makes no mention of any Shermans on his side of the road but states he advanced 1 ½ Kms which would have taken him up to and past the Sherbrookes ! If the Sherbrookes were there and did hit anything it was probably Hoflingers Tiger which again Christie fails to mention was knocked out near to the Sherbrookes.
Other German accounts such as that from SS Untersturmfuhrer Horst Borgsmuller from the Stab of the Panzer Regiment , he was sent out to search for Wittmann report that he spoke to some of the Grenadiers who had witnessed the fighting who stated that the Tigers had been knocked out by “ Anti Tank “ fire from the right.
None of the German accounts mention fire from the left flank or any Typhoon or aerial attacks ,!! If the Sherbrookes had knocked out any Tigers ( the greatest prize for an Allied Tank crew ) on that day from a range of 140 m surely this would have been in the War diary ?? Hoflingers account was made about a month after the engagement whilst many of the others in the programme were made from a distance of 60-70 years as of course Wittmann has only become of interest in modern times ( other than with his former Kameraden )following the discovery of his remains in 1983.
In truth the only physical evidence is the 1 Northants Yeomanry War diary which claims 3 Tigers knocked out in that area plus the accounts of the Germans who fought in this engagement everything else is “ speculation evidence “ with no primary source proof behind it.

[HistoryMan]

Who knocked out the other 2 then? ...........

[Paul D]

Who knocked out the other 2 then? ...........

The Northants War diary states that they claimed 5 Tigers , Four Panthers , 6 Panzer IV's and 5 SP Guns during the fighting on 8/8/44 although only 3 the Tigers are mentioned with specific times etc , for the loss of 20 Tanks including 5 sherman 5C's .

[The Devil's Bank]

Joe Ekins said he saw the Turret explode after his second shot.. that would be one hell of a sight.

Wittmanns Tiger did indeed explode after the ammunition went up.

But, Wittmanns Turret was already dislodged at this point.

Ekins clearly remembers the Turret exploding, when the other Tigers were hit, why did he remember this particular one explode?

So, if Ekins memory is correct (?) and he did see a Tiger explode, and it wasn't Wittmanns???

All three Tigers would at least possibly be on fire (?), with lots of smoke.

One more so than the other two. Wittmanns.

One Tiger did have it's tracks damaged and was seen going around in circles trying to escape.. before it was destroyed.

The point is, Wittmanns Tiger was disabled, as we know, before it went bang.

I just think the sequence of events may be different from what we now know.

Could Wittmanns Tiger have been hit earlier on and stopped, with Ekins firing his second shot just as 007 blew up?

I've always been interested in this topic and thanks for all who have contributed

Maybe one day another picture might surface, helping with this fascinating moment in history.

Keep the comments coming