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recognizes "liar" german ace?

Article about: by another ant Attachment 654617 font: Fighter Pilot: The First American Ace of World War II by William R. Dunn time ago I read the same in another book I forget which (only the marked in ye

  1. #11


    Quote by asterperious View Post
    I think you are confuding the americans here, only ground attack units like Stukas counted scores on the ground.

    Undeniably being in a target rich environement helped, but the germans flew until they died from the beginning to the end, there was no finish line of a set 'tour' if allied aces had stayed in for the duration and were generally closer to a land based tactical front with thousands of foes, we might have seen similar scores. German tallies have been exhaustively studied and are not considered to have been padded at all. In some instances scores are a bit under reported as some had a habit of blooding new pilots with a complimentary 'victory'. German kill claims needed exhaustive confirmaton as kills counted towards points for decorations at one point and many had 'throat ache' for the knights cross. Remember how bureacratic and retentive the germans are. They fought a very different war and within the constriants of combat that the allies imposed on their piltos they did very well. The general lack of targerts for air to air in NW Europe after D-day lead to the americans counting 'ground kills' although most pilots made the distinction and aces had an asterisk next to them if any 'kills' were ground claims. Many a poor He111 marooned on an airfield was 'killed' over and over by American pilots leading to score inflaition. In fact so anxious were many american pilots to score killls, that a large number of RAF Typhoons and Tempests were shot down by friendlies as presumed Fw190's.
    I find it hard to believe certain parts within your post, during the Battle of Britain ,the German propoganda machine was worked overtime with the so called tallies amassed by the Luftwaffe, if they were to be taken seriously then we had no aircraft left at all, there were no "tours"during that time, it was every day because of the amount of aircraft sent by the Luftwaffe, they might have had a rest period if lucky, the RAF and the British population knew we had our backs against the wall, therefore there was no need to sugar coat the actual tallies, the Blitz proved that the Luftwaffe was far superior in numbers, also i am somewhat sceptical re the amount of RAF aircraft shot down by American pilots, the Typhoon and Tempest bear no resemblance to a FW190, and i find it hard to believe that American pilots were so bad at aircraft recognition, ie sizes in comparison, configuration, wing spans, the fact that a cross looks so different from a roundel, bearing in mind that most "kills" were pretty close, at least to spot the differences, admittedly there were blue on blue accidents by all allied aircraft, but you make it sound as if more british planes were shot down than german ,by american pilots, if memory serves correct there were no "tours" within fighter command only bomber command, unless you refer to pilots being grounded either from stress, fatigue, or promotion to a desk job

  2. #12


    Dave, the BoB is exceptional so you are astray a bit in trying to draw a generalization for the entire war, it was 3.5 months July 10-Oct 31 1940, and yes it was do or die, the Germans did cover up their losses and the brits overclaimed, hardly a revelation.

    In the aftermath of 1940 the Air minstry define tours for all operational flying, Bomber command was 30 trips; Fighter command 200 hours offensive operations, 400 defensive; night fighters 100 hours operational to a max of 18 months; Army coperation 200 hours; Coastal command 400 hours. Exceptional individuals were permitted to volunteer for additional tours - after a rest period, usually instructing, particularily in pathfinder and other special duty units like photo recon, some exceptional individuals amassing amazing operational careers.

    I have at work a number of gun camera films from the 406th FG that in one highlight reel done by the unit in Sept '44 showed no less than 3 typhoons being downed by their P-47 pilots. Read Hugh Hallidays "Typhoon & Tempest" many many verified accounts of USAAF attacks on Typhoons, in fact the 9th AF issued numerous advisories group commanders to re-enforce type awareness and refrain from trigger happiness while conducting daylight fighter operations in the western Euoropen theatre.. It certainly happened more than people are aware and was not, sadly an uncommon occurrance.

  3. #13


    something common in the American pilots ?????,only this time the rabbit defend oneself.

    During WWII, Ivan Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills.
    Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #14



    You seem fond of starting your post in the vein of:
    Quote by asterperious View Post
    I think you are confuding the............

    Quote by asterperious View Post
    I think you are missing the main point .......
    Merely an observation; its not really how this internet debate thing is put together (to spurt things like that). At least its not conductive to good debate and even more important, it doesnt automatically make you right either.

    It only makes forum members suspect somebody has their head up a certain orifice, if you will permit me to say so.

    No offence.

    Im not offended in the slightest either, but this will only derail into endless smug 'you said, but I meant' & 'but I meant and you said' back and forth idiocy.

    Further more, there is a lot of time, redundant explanations and cut and paste involved, even though I explaned my POV above in relative plain English.

    Well beyond this post, this will be without me taking part in any further debate with you in this thread.

    Again, no offence, but its plain and simple waste of my time, as I clearly stated my POV above.

    I belive, that I wrote it plain and simple.

    Anyway, here goes nothing or at least what should be redundant:

    I DONT miss the point. As I stated and which I now repeat, at a point in time Soviet forces threw everyting in the fight - both poorly trained and less than up-to-date planes. Further more, there were so many many Russians.
    The same scenario was never present in the West and could never be present no matter HOW you SPIN it and Allied aces would NEVER be able to accumulate the high scores, that the Germans accumulated on the Eastern Front.

    Your argument is like somehting out of a Turtledove novel instead of relating to cold had facts.

    By your reasoning (Hartmann went operational in '43 and 'had the Allies only had longer time in theater'), you might do well to remember when the US entered the war as compared to some other countries.

    Thats not a criticism (the US fought well and had some fantastic planes and pilots. I wouldnt visit the Udvar-Hazy on numerous occasions and further more try to get to talk to some pretty high ranking US pilots, were it not so), but was merely to stress, that others had been fighting for a while and fought on also without accumulating Eastern Front-like numbers, which could ONLY happen there in the East at a specific time at a specific place.

    No way US pilots or any other Allied pilots could achieve the same numbers. Or to debate like you do; to claim so shows a lack of basic understanding of circumstances in not only the West but also in the Eastern theaters of war.

    Quote by asterperious View Post
    different operational factors accounted for victory tally discrepancies, that is all.
    *SIGH* Yes, thats EXACTLY what I wrote in my post #7 above. Now you are just contradicting yourself. Do you even contemplate or proof-read your comments! (Rhetorical - dont answer)

    Further more, your arguments about the quality of the German pilots and the decline in both pilot material and plane quality as the War progressed are null and void; it does not change that specific circumstances were in place in the East and they in NO could be replicated in the West. See above in regards to 'basic understanding.'

    Quote by asterperious View Post
    don't discount the Russians - they won, German tech/skill/elan/ego without quantity could never have prevailed.
    Ohh dear, I havent in any way shape of form knocked the Russians. I stressed, that all nationalities involved had fine pilots and planes. The Russians caught up eventually even though they at some point threw inferior material into the fight.
    I have nothing but respect for the Russian fighting spirit, their tremendous losses during and their ability to bounce back during WWII.

    As for the part about the Germans not being able to win without quantity - thank you for stating the obvious. Im no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but to most here that little tidbit of info is blindingly evident and has never been in question hence redundant to mention. Its a WAR relics forum with the vast majority of forum members interested in WWII.

    As for:
    Quote by asterperious View Post
    Did you know there were rarely more than 2 wings of FW 190s at anytime on the Russian front?
    Quote by asterperious View Post
    If you are interested in the Soviet side of the air war in the east I would reccmend this book by 2 of my colleagues, it is very illuminating. Red Phoenix Rising: The Soviet Air Force in World War II (Modern War Studies): Von Hardesty, Ilya Grinberg: 9780700618286: Books
    I mentioned FW. In retrospect and in light of your posts in this thread, I should not have been that specific.
    FWs dont matter in regards to high scores per se.
    Check the planes Bubi Hartmann flew and if you'd read Rudel's war diary you would know, that he wasnt famous for flying and getting a high score in the FW (though he did fly that plane), but in quite a different plane.

    You hint at your collegues writing books; if you are in academia (been there, done that), you sure have a funny (poor?) way of communicating. Grabbing things Im supposed to have said, but which I never did say, out of thin air.

    What an utter waste of my time and bandwith.

    My words may come over harsh, but dont take it too personal. Im sure, that you are a fine Fellow, but I feel that I couldnt leave your post unanswered and maybe that was wrong on my behalf. Sorry for that, fellow forum members. Feel free to delete this post, if it makes for too much OT in an otherwise interesting thread.

  5. #15


    Quote by asterperious View Post
    Dave, the BoB is exceptional so you are astray a bit in trying to draw a generalization for the entire war...............
    Dave, Dave, Dave - why are you astray. Seems we all are except one


  6. #16


    yes i know scout, but i wonder if theres a realisation that during the BoB, Britain saw the entire might of the Luftwaffe, with the best pilots Germany had, seasoned fighters from the spanish civil war , numerous aircraft that literally blackened the sky, more so than most other pilots saw in the remaining years of the war, and certainly within those 3 and a half months we faced not only thousands of aircraft but the best Germany had and those numbers steadily declined throughout the war, and as for over claiming, Dowding insisted on accurate tallies in order to assess percentages, and he refused to sugar coat the facts, but i know that some form of rebuke will be forthcoming. i can feel it in my bones

  7. #17


    Returning to the question of the thread
    I found the other book that I read this story is:

    ME 109: willy messerschmitt's peerless fighter by Martin Caidin

    he does reference to the wing commander of the RAF Asher Lee book ,talks about the incident that started the thread, and that the pilot in question was later relayed to a post of counselor (the three names he say are Moelders, Wick and Marseille)

    by the clues can only be:

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  8. #18


    Who needs a beer
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #19


    Quote by another ant View Post
    Returning to the question of the thread
    I found the other book that I read this story is:

    ME 109: willy messerschmitt's peerless fighter by Martin Caidin

    he does reference to the wing commander of the RAF Asher Lee book ,talks about the incident that started the thread, and that the pilot in question was later relayed to a post of counselor (the three names he say are Moelders, Wick and Marseille)

    by the clues can only be:
    By 'counseler' do you refer to Mölders' promotion to 'Inspekteur der Jagdflieger' (later changed to 'General der Jagdflieger')?

    Quote by Larry C View Post
    Who needs a beer
    Is the sun over the yardarm yet?
    Ahh, who cares.
    India Pale Ale for me please - preferably Dogfish Head '90 minute IPA.'

  10. #20


    the book:
    ME 109: willy messerschmitt's peerless fighter by Martin Caidin
    page of the book 141 in the version of my language
    if someone has it in English and wants to work putting a scan of the page to not lead to misinterpretation, would appreciate.

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