Dave, the BoB is exceptional so you are astray a bit in trying to draw a generalization for the entire war, it was 3.5 months July 10-Oct 31 1940, and yes it was do or die, the Germans did cover up their losses and the brits overclaimed, hardly a revelation.
In the aftermath of 1940 the Air minstry define tours for all operational flying, Bomber command was 30 trips; Fighter command 200 hours offensive operations, 400 defensive; night fighters 100 hours operational to a max of 18 months; Army coperation 200 hours; Coastal command 400 hours. Exceptional individuals were permitted to volunteer for additional tours - after a rest period, usually instructing, particularily in pathfinder and other special duty units like photo recon, some exceptional individuals amassing amazing operational careers.
I have at work a number of gun camera films from the 406th FG that in one highlight reel done by the unit in Sept '44 showed no less than 3 typhoons being downed by their P-47 pilots. Read Hugh Hallidays "Typhoon & Tempest" many many verified accounts of USAAF attacks on Typhoons, in fact the 9th AF issued numerous advisories group commanders to re-enforce type awareness and refrain from trigger happiness while conducting daylight fighter operations in the western Euoropen theatre.. It certainly happened more than people are aware and was not, sadly an uncommon occurrance.
something common in the American pilots ?????,only this time the rabbit defend oneself.
During WWII, Ivan Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills.
Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.
font: copy paste
You seem fond of starting your post in the vein of:
It only makes forum members suspect somebody has their head up a certain orifice, if you will permit me to say so.
Im not offended in the slightest either, but this will only derail into endless smug 'you said, but I meant' & 'but I meant and you said' back and forth idiocy.
Further more, there is a lot of time, redundant explanations and cut and paste involved, even though I explaned my POV above in relative plain English.
Well beyond this post, this will be without me taking part in any further debate with you in this thread.
Again, no offence, but its plain and simple waste of my time, as I clearly stated my POV above.
I belive, that I wrote it plain and simple.
Anyway, here goes nothing or at least what should be redundant:
I DONT miss the point. As I stated and which I now repeat, at a point in time Soviet forces threw everyting in the fight - both poorly trained and less than up-to-date planes. Further more, there were so many many Russians.
The same scenario was never present in the West and could never be present no matter HOW you SPIN it and Allied aces would NEVER be able to accumulate the high scores, that the Germans accumulated on the Eastern Front.
Your argument is like somehting out of a Turtledove novel instead of relating to cold had facts.
By your reasoning (Hartmann went operational in '43 and 'had the Allies only had longer time in theater'), you might do well to remember when the US entered the war as compared to some other countries.
Thats not a criticism (the US fought well and had some fantastic planes and pilots. I wouldnt visit the Udvar-Hazy on numerous occasions and further more try to get to talk to some pretty high ranking US pilots, were it not so), but was merely to stress, that others had been fighting for a while and fought on also without accumulating Eastern Front-like numbers, which could ONLY happen there in the East at a specific time at a specific place.
No way US pilots or any other Allied pilots could achieve the same numbers. Or to debate like you do; to claim so shows a lack of basic understanding of circumstances in not only the West but also in the Eastern theaters of war.
Further more, your arguments about the quality of the German pilots and the decline in both pilot material and plane quality as the War progressed are null and void; it does not change that specific circumstances were in place in the East and they in NO could be replicated in the West. See above in regards to 'basic understanding.'
I have nothing but respect for the Russian fighting spirit, their tremendous losses during and their ability to bounce back during WWII.
As for the part about the Germans not being able to win without quantity - thank you for stating the obvious. Im no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but to most here that little tidbit of info is blindingly evident and has never been in question hence redundant to mention. Its a WAR relics forum with the vast majority of forum members interested in WWII.
FWs dont matter in regards to high scores per se.
Check the planes Bubi Hartmann flew and if you'd read Rudel's war diary you would know, that he wasnt famous for flying and getting a high score in the FW (though he did fly that plane), but in quite a different plane.
You hint at your collegues writing books; if you are in academia (been there, done that), you sure have a funny (poor?) way of communicating. Grabbing things Im supposed to have said, but which I never did say, out of thin air.
What an utter waste of my time and bandwith.
My words may come over harsh, but dont take it too personal. Im sure, that you are a fine Fellow, but I feel that I couldnt leave your post unanswered and maybe that was wrong on my behalf. Sorry for that, fellow forum members. Feel free to delete this post, if it makes for too much OT in an otherwise interesting thread.
yes i know scout, but i wonder if theres a realisation that during the BoB, Britain saw the entire might of the Luftwaffe, with the best pilots Germany had, seasoned fighters from the spanish civil war , numerous aircraft that literally blackened the sky, more so than most other pilots saw in the remaining years of the war, and certainly within those 3 and a half months we faced not only thousands of aircraft but the best Germany had and those numbers steadily declined throughout the war, and as for over claiming, Dowding insisted on accurate tallies in order to assess percentages, and he refused to sugar coat the facts, but i know that some form of rebuke will be forthcoming. i can feel it in my bones
Returning to the question of the thread
I found the other book that I read this story is:
ME 109: willy messerschmitt's peerless fighter by Martin Caidin
he does reference to the wing commander of the RAF Asher Lee book ,talks about the incident that started the thread, and that the pilot in question was later relayed to a post of counselor (the three names he say are Moelders, Wick and Marseille)
by the clues can only be:
Who needs a beer
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
ME 109: willy messerschmitt's peerless fighter by Martin Caidin
page of the book 141 in the version of my language
if someone has it in English and wants to work putting a scan of the page to not lead to misinterpretation, would appreciate.