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12 th SS Hitlerjugend ID disc

Article about: hello Guys Annoyed from this ads?   We find this ID disc from a member of the 12Th ss Hitlerjugend...matter of fact we find the whole the Norray sector in Normandy he is pr

  1. #11


    Quote by blaksaussa View Post
    What are you talking about StephanM ?? we found the body in a Battlefield area , and we send the bones to the cemetary !! the soldier wasn't found in a grave !!!
    i posted the dugout site doesn't look like a Cemetary !!!
    it is the 3rd soldier to be found around Caen this month , this is NO grave robbers , it is ww2 archeology !!
    if it was in a grave the dog tag won't be we find his rifle etc....

    Read before such comments !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    .....I did and this is what I read:

    Quote by blaksaussa View Post
    hello Guys
    We find this ID disc from a member of the 12Th ss Hitlerjugend...matter of fact we find the whole soldier
    So now you are saying the dogtag was not found in battlefield grave with the whole soldier...his DNA in hair sample, skull fragments etc......mmm.

    Kirchmeier was refering to battlefield graves like the one you found not cemetery graves.
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  2. #12


    are you kidding me ? we found the dog tag, the soldier, everything in a field !!! that's it....not in a grave !! we sent the remains with the local authorities to the La Cambes cemetary !! where is the problem ?? let me know , i don't get it
    it is not a battlefield grave !! the body was covered with mud by the bombimg and left manies in Normandy
    now he will be able to lay with his comrades at the La Cambe cemetery , and maybe with his identity finally found
    why are you judging it ?

  3. #13


    Quote by blaksaussa View Post
    are you kidding me ? we found the dog tag, the soldier, everything in a field !!! that's it....not in a grave !! we sent the remains with the local authorities to the La Cambes cemetary !! where is the problem ?? let me know , i don't get it
    Indeed everything you found was in a war grave ie. the grave of soldier buried in a battlefield, a war grave. Maybe it is a simple misunderstanding of language?

    The point Herr Kirchmeier was making was that soldiers remains are dug up and dogtags removed so that the German War Graves Commision cannot identify the fallen soldiers. Why have they not been given the dog tag of your original post so that the soldier can be identified and the dog tag returned to the family? Or is that not the normal procedure?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  4. #14


    i never said that we will keep the dogtag...i post in this forum to help identify the dogtag to give more information to the Volksbund, as soon as it will be , all of his remains will be given to the Cemetary !! it is a fresh found, the german war graves commission will have the infos from this dog tag.
    so if i'm following you all the dog tags, named helmet, named items, wherpass, Soldbuch in every collections around the world shall be return to families ?

  5. #15


    I do not know what is the formal procedure with the Volksbund regarding battlefield grave finds. I assume if you and the "we"are digging up German soldiers in France it is with a sanctioned organisation and not as a amateur hobbyist with no training in dealing with human remains you will be fully aware of the regulations demanded by the German War Graves Commission?

    Are the Volksbund not experts in identifying dog tags that they need the help of WRF members?
    I collect, therefore I am.

    Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.

  6. #16


    Wouldn't it make sense then to find out before accusing someone of doing something wrong? Or at least privately query him about the circumstances before launching a public inquiry without any real information?

    Well blaksaussa I for one applaud your attempt to help out in identifying this soldier. I would think the authorities have your contact information and you could easily provide images or the actual disc itself if they don't have it already- I notice nobody actually asked you if you kept these things or sent them as well.

    Anyway, it's hard to say if the disc would be of any use though- it's mostly illegible and we're guessing at a lot.

    Well one thing I notice is that a couple of the roll numbers are more clear on the lower half (in the photo)- 546- so fitting them in with the top means the number is actually '20546'; that suggests the disc is one from one of the single specialist replacement units that got to really high numbers. Depending on how the WASt's information is organized, such a high number may itself allow identification since doubtless there couldn't be many men who had 20546 as their roll number.

    The unit is a type that begins with a 'P' and the next letter does appear to have a vertical line, and doesn't appear to be a 'z', so it seems unlikely to be 'Panzer' or 'Panzergrenadier'; 'Pionier' is a good possibility though. It's unit type organized as a Bataillon since the 'Bt-' is visible on the lower half- that too supports it not being Panzer, since they were organized as Abteilungen. Panzergrenadier-Ersatz-Bataillon (or Ausbildungs-und Ersatz) is possible, but the roll number is rather high for those I think since there were many. The SS-Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon is a distinct possibility- it was created in 1939 and redesignated SS-Pionier-Ausbildungs-und Ersatz-Bataillon 1 in 1943; I can't find any specifics about it after that but if it continued to operate until late in the war, getting to 20000 men doesn't seem impossible; it was the only SS-Pionier replacement unit for 4 years, and from 1943 on there were only 3 of them for the entire Waffen-SS (1, 2, and 3; 4 was created in 1945, so likely didn't do much).

    The figure on the far right doesn't look like a '9' to me- there's no indication of a looping in middle- just the outer curve; it might just be a blood group 'O' mark, since those could be put anywhere, and it's different font than the Stammrollennummer- if it were a unit number, it'd be in the same font. Blood group letters, however, are typically a different font.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  7. #17


    Thank You very much Matt for your precious help !!!
    i'm just certain that this soldier belongs to the 12TH ss HJ , i will keep you updated
    StefanM i don't get why are you so negative with this found, the local authority took care of the body remains with us, i'm not a grave-robber, i'm a member of a well known ww2 veteran organisation in normandy, so relax, everything is under control, it is not in Russia, i was just looking for help in this forum to confirm what we thought. The full story result will be in the Heimdal Normandie 44 magasines later.
    i will keep you updated when the soldier will be fully identified and have his grave at the cemetery

  8. #18


    I made a composite of the disc, cropping the more legible bits and placing them above or below the less-so copies, and I put in text to clarify what I see. Sadly, the bit between the 'P' and the 'Btl' isn't large so it's really tough to be sure what could fit in there. If it is the SS-Pionier unit, it'd have to be SS-Pi. A.u.E. Btl, which might work- three letters could fit in the space- but I can't say for sure. Nothing else that might fit immediately comes to mind.

    It might be enough for the WASt to work with though since the full Stammrollennummer is there; if the record exists, they should be able to tell if there was a man with that number in the unit at least. If they never got that high, then it has to be something else. It'd be really great if their database is searchable by roll number and they could just check and see how many men had 20546, which as I say surely can't be many- that's really, really high.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  9. #19


    One flaw in the theory I just found- Dimas posted a photo of a disc from the SS-Pionier-Ersatz-Bataillon and it includes a Kompanie number; this disc doesn't appear to have one. The round edge of the disc is clearly visible on the right, and there's nothing before the 'SS' on the bottom half.

    I don't know if it's likely the unit would have begun using them and then stopped; Dimas' disc is only number 515 so it would have been a very long time between that one and 20546, and I suppose it's not impossible they did make such a change, but I don't know of any examples of it actually happening.

    I did have a further look through my list of abbreviations and the SS-units, and I can't find anything other than Pionier that begins with a 'P' and has a second letter that might include a vertical bit that would fit with the high roll number and also be a Bataillon.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  10. #20


    wow !! i can't believe how much of a quality your work is for me very very apreciated , and this forum is suposed to be friendly and Professional you proved it both !!!
    All our discoveries are done with proper autorisation, and i don't have to answer like if it was a gestapo interview...know what i mean
    this soldier was a MG servant as we found MG carrying pouch, Tools, K98,
    maybe the picture from the back of the disc will help you further ...
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture IMG_8745.JPG   IMG_8744.JPG  

    IMG_8736.JPG   IMG_8725.JPG  

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