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Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

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  1. #1361

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    Greetings to all!How you have fun!However,will show a small report from the North of Russia.
    Here's the thing,the dwarves forged parts for MG,some very rare.
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  2. #1362

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    Chemical cleaning MG34 parts
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  3. #1363

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    Arktis ist Nicht! 5 diggers with 1 dog 18 days worked in Karelia
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  4. #1364

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    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Sorry...but you are wrong on the 830 Silver marking statement. Where are you seeing that these are all German made rings? Silver rings-both skulls and others-weren't all produced in TR-era Germany. 830 is a commonly seen and used silver marking in Denmark, Norway and who knows how many other countries. It is a simple matter to quickly do a Google search and look up Silver purity marks. And, yes-real silver does, indeed, turn black under various oxidation conditions. But, it does not require the services of a chemist in a lab to remove the black tarnish either. People in the field do not spend 24/7 of their time swinging picks and shovels. They have plenty of time to sit about and clean their excavated relics. You seem to not realize, that each and every excavated piece shown is not always Specifically dug up at that precise Moment. Perhaps the item being looked at was dug up, say, 2 years before and has been extensively cleaned and restored since? Yes, it looks impressive to photograph an item sitting on the top of the soil from the dig site, but where is it being said that the item was dug up 10 minutes previous to the photograph? These people dig for Years and unearth thousands of artifacts.
    By showing said item clumped in dirt and moss -that is EXACTLY what that photo composition is implying... yet, NO TARNISH.


    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    I'll just lightly touch on your remarks on the SS buckle. No, all RZM stamping's "Z"s do not feature cross marks. Please look through the pinned reference thread here to see several example which do not. SS Officer Buckle makers and, No, all SS rune marked items do Not feature the "Allach Style" intertwined runes. Again, we have several reference threads on the forum that can easily be perused to see this.
    Far be it for me to be the first one to suggest this -but referencing ANY user-modifiable website (like Wikipedia and discussion forums like this) as 'proof' is hogwash. Try quoting from noted reference material (books), where the author spent years investigating and accumulating data -versus some keyboard jockey(s) 'creating' proof to justify the legitimacy of their forgeries. Even using other collector forums as 'proof' would be a step above in reliability -assuming it is not the same jockey with a different user name.


    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    I do very much hope that you are not going to rehash the very same argument you began years ago on the same subject. There are, as shown, explanations for these argument points, but, again, why you feel that you are entitled to demand them to be explained to you in minutia to satisfy you, I am not seeing. Now please do not pollute a fine and interesting thread with these bickering "I don't believe it-these are all lying deceiving con-men arguments".
    Please understand my concern... I am not saying that everything being found is fake -far from it. The items I have specifically identified have some credibility issues that I think are accurate. Previous posts of mine identified the different stages of corrosion on known metals used in the period -that weren't seen on the items 'as found'. On the Anti-Partisan badge, the pin and barrel would have to have been made of stainless steel to still have a sheen to it -while the rest of the badge (mostly reverse side) is heavily pitted. To have the pin and barrel escape the same corrosion means only one thing -and we all know stainless steel wasn't used.

    They are selling items to fund additional forays into these forgotten battlefields in hopes of finding a 'holy grail' type of discovery. To that end, it would stand to reason that some 'questionable' items are being represented as 'found' and sold as such. Just look at the quantity of rings being found -versus the bodies they came from. Did every body have at least 1 ring on them?

    Take a look at the previously shown Luftwaffe Flak ring... why does it look like the proof mark has more deforming corrosion than the face of the ring, when the inside of the ring was more protected when worn?Click image for larger version. 

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    To my eyes, that looks like it used to say '925' and was purposely defaced to cover it up... that is unless you want to say, "there was a documented German sympathizer British jeweler that made Nazi rings in his spare time" and then have some buddies state the same thing and offer it as provenance?

    Think about it from a logical center versus an emotional one and you too, will start to wonder.

  5. #1365

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    German soldiers had jewelry made up wherever they were stationed.

    that is unless you want to say, "there was a documented German sympathizer British jeweler that made Nazi rings in his spare time" and then have some buddies state the same thing and offer it as provenance?
    Why would this jeweler have to be British? Please explain. Even Norway started using .925 in the 1920s and we had close to 400 000 German soldiers here at the end of the war --- where's your "scholarly" backed up argument? Seeing as, according to you, the decades of accumulated, tried and tested, knowledge shared freely on here and other forums "such as this" aren't to be trusted...
    Please quote the book/author that says no rings were made for soldiers in occupied countries and that therefore the rings shown could not possibly be of the period.

    Don't demand of others what you can't provide yourself.

    Try quoting from noted reference material (books), where the author spent years investigating and accumulating data -versus some keyboard jockey(s) 'creating' proof to justify the legitimacy of their forgeries.
    So, you're really accusing serious collectors on here of conspiring to back fake items as real in order to support their production of said fakes? Please, be specific.... who are these people, exactly?
    In the end I guess that statement says more about you and your level of "knowledge" and respect for other people than it does about the value of the input from members on here --- sad.

    The points re. the Bandenkampfabzeichen have already been addressed, but you just don't want to listen to anyone here.

    And, of course... where's the relevance re. the "number of bodies" possibly found compared to amount of rings dug up? Does every ring have to have a body attached? I could swear all those "civilian" rings I've found down at the local beach never had any bodies attached either... still they seem to be all over the place --- how strange.

    Why don't you create new separate threads on the items you deem fake/questionable? Back you threads up with quotes from known authors/published reference material, just like you are demanding of people on here, and I'm sure the discussion will thrive.

  6. #1366

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    The arguments made here are almost in total absurdity. Are diggers then expected to turn a shovel of dirt, stop, take photos, sift out artifacts, stop, take more photos, clean the artifacts while Being photographed and finally show the end result? How would you expect anyone to ever actually Dig something up if each turn of the spade necessitated an hour of photographing? These diggers have been at this work for Years and have recovered countless actual skeletal remains. Are they fake too? Where are they supposed to be getting all of these artifacts from? Stores?
    And, now you are saying that even our own Reference Threads showing and illustrating authentic pieces are not to be trusted? We show photographs from advanced collections and researchers and they are all "Hogwash"?? Who then Is to be trusted? You?
    Did every soldier wear a ring? Of course not! But, for sake of discussion,say, as little as 1% of them did? So if a 10,000 man unit fought totally alone and without any other supporting units to back them, wouldn't this mean that 100 rings would be expected? If 10% of the unit had rings....then 1000 rings? Or did they all melt and destroy them? Throw them in the garbage if they were miraculously fortunate to see home again? Millions of soldiers from the German Reich marched East and were never heard from or seen again. The millions of prisoners of war taken.....did the capturing soldiers and the camp guards allow them to keep their personal affects throughout their captivity? And, by the way, try flipping that Silver mark upside down and enlarging it with added contrast and light. Somehow, I'm not seeing a "defaced 925". Looks like "835" to me.
    You endlessly point out that things do not come from the ground shiny and clean. Of Course they do not. And no one is saying that they Do. They are cleaned, restored and polished up afterwards. If they are then brought back out to the dig site and photographed for effect, I am not seeing why this is a problem for you. I doubt very much if there is a gigantic excavated relic store secreted somewhere in Russia doling out these bits and pieces here and there. I would much like to find such a store if there is. If you would look throughout the Entire thread, as I recall, there was even a ring photographed with the finger bones still in it.
    But, enough wasting of Band Width explaining the same obvious common sense things to you again and again. This is Not what this thread is for. If it bothers you so greatly, then walk away from it and don't read any more of it.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #1367

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    Quote by Eismeerfront View Post
    Bandenkampf Azeichen in Silber,great condition,Unker
    More unfo-please PM
    Rewarding in Reich: 1650 (Bronze)
    510 (Silber)
    47 (Gold)
    [QUOTE=Mil Spec;1522191]


    Please understand my concern... I am not saying that everything being found is fake -far from it. The items I have specifically identified have some credibility issues that I think are accurate. Previous posts of mine identified the different stages of corrosion on known metals used in the period -that weren't seen on the items 'as found'. On the Anti-Partisan badge, the pin and barrel would have to have been made of stainless steel to still have a sheen to it -while the rest of the badge (mostly reverse side) is heavily pitted. To have the pin and barrel escape the same corrosion means only one thing -and we all know stainless steel wasn't used. END QUOTE.

    Without wanting to be dragged into this robust exchange of views about the above item and others highlighted here, I should like to show a silver Bandenkampfabzeichen that was ground dug last year and subsequently treated using the popular treatment of electrolysis to improve it's appearance. It's luckily also a second pattern Juncker, and has been confirmed as entirely original by Antonio Scapini, author of the soon to be released book on the BKA. I should like to hear what both camps have to say after seeing both badges together.

    First the ground dug original unmessed with badge from last year that has received the electrolysis treatment:

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    And the ground dug badge from Maxim already posted here:

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    Eagerly awaiting your opinions after you compare both gentlemen!

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  8. #1368
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    Mr Mil spec this thread has 137 pages and 1367 posts and involves persons who are involved in legitiamte , authorised activities and have been for many years whose intergrity is not in dispute.

    That said it is of course the right of any person here to ask for a discussion on any item that is posted and clearly you are an expert on the effect that the Artic tundra of Karelia has on metals but i would ask as suggested by nother members that you take your discussion onto seperate threads in the appropriate sections to avoid this one becoming derailed.

    I would also ask you to stop making unfounded accusations based on your personal opinions as to the integrity of the participants of the thread.
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  9. #1369

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    Quote by big ned View Post

    Eagerly awaiting your opinions after you compare both gentlemen!

    Regards, Ned.
    Both appear similar with regards to the condition of the attachment in relation to the condition/level and type of corrosion to the badge itself --- (only real difference I see would be the different type of catch hook). Not going to comment any further as I'm not a BKA expert by any means.

  10. #1370

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    Quote by slados28 View Post
    Why would this jeweler have to be British? Please explain. Even Norway started using .925 in the 1920s and we had close to 400 000 German soldiers here at the end of the war --- where's your "scholarly" backed up argument?
    In over 40 years of collecting, from what I have seen, it has been generally accepted that the only country using '925' proofed silver during this era was England (and through association, their colonies)... and only became an international standard for 'Sterling Silver' after the war. The U.S. used 'STERLING' rather than '925' as the silver proof on their items. If Norway has also indeed been proven to be using '925' during the war -then I apologize for stating it was only England. As for the 400k German soldiers present at the end of the war... the items in question are being found in Karelia, Russia -not Norway.

    Quote by slados28 View Post
    So, you're really accusing serious collectors on here of conspiring to back fake items as real in order to support their production of said fakes? Please, be specific.... who are these people, exactly?
    Without identifying said individuals by their real name, I can say that one specifically in this thread that is also doing the 'finding' is in fact, the same person from a shipping address in Riga, Latvia that sold me a fake Knight's Cross with Oakleaves & Swords device -using the identical, same text (punctuation, spelling, grammar, wording) in both correspondence from the RK purchase -and a decade later in this thread. Given the fact that the purchase was in the 4-figures, it would be a crime in the U.S. -if the seller was in the U.S., or sold through a U.S. website. So here, the website is '.eu' -giving provenance to items being 'found' and sold in the '.eu'. That is part of the basis of the concerns I have. But, I suppose if the suffix on this website was '.pl' [Poland] or '.ru' [Russia] -people may only then have some pause for concern right?


    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    And, by the way, try flipping that Silver mark upside down and enlarging it with added contrast and light. Somehow, I'm not seeing a "defaced 925". Looks like "835" to me.
    I did flip it over (from the original photo) to read it... either way, the second digit shows a flat on either the top or bottom -meaning a '2' or a '5' is the second digit. A '3' with a flat top was not used in Europe during the period.

    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    You endlessly point out that things do not come from the ground shiny and clean. Of Course they do not. And no one is saying that they Do. They are cleaned, restored and polished up afterwards. If they are then brought back out to the dig site and photographed for effect, I am not seeing why this is a problem for you. I doubt very much if there is a gigantic excavated relic store secreted somewhere in Russia doling out these bits and pieces here and there. I would much like to find such a store if there is. If you would look throughout the Entire thread, as I recall, there was even a ring photographed with the finger bones still in it.
    Aging a reproduction and 'staging' it in photos is what I am saying... not a 'relic store'. Proper excavations DO document items in every stage of discovery, cleaning and identification. Laying out grid lines for photographic documentation is performed in land and undersea excavations to show exactly where items are found and in what condition. Bringing a 'found' item that has been 'cleaned' back to a dig site -is not provenance in anyone's book. If the silver ring on the finger bones was tarnished black and the bone was correspondingly discolored, then I would believe that specific item to be genuine... and this isn't 'common sense' also?

    For certain, being ripped off by an individual using the same exact verbiage as another contributor to this thread has biased me. I freely admit it.

    Fortunately, proven science and documented reactions of metals in various environments and time spans -is on my side.

    Quote by Paul D View Post
    I would also ask you to stop making unfounded accusations based on your personal opinions as to the integrity of the participants of the thread.
    Without any disrespect to you Paul, being based in Estonia -where many forgeries have been proven to originate- your statements of support are equally just as 'unfounded and personal' as you say my posts have been. I do have science and historical documentation in support of my statements. But perhaps you are correct... leading a thirsty horse to water and expecting it to drink is challenging to all but the most skilled of Svengali's, and just maybe I should let this game be played by these 'willing' (yet uninformed) participants.

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