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Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

Article about: Next mirror for REAL gentlemans.....with condom

  1. #1511
    ?

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    Quote by werwolf12 View Post
    How about the human skulls, are they for sale also?
    Please explain this abhorent comment or you are gone from here !
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  2. #1512

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    No skull.May be new brain?

  3. #1513
    ?

    Default

    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  4. #1514

    Default

    "How about the human skulls, are they for sale also?"

    There is always some body who has to ruin a great thread.

    Quite disgraceful really.

  5. #1515

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    He hasn't ruined this thread matey, just an idiot, which every hobby has unfortunately. For anyone who looks in on this forum they'll see we don't tolerate such awful comments.

    Must never let these people tarnish our great hobby.
    Always looking for photos relating to:
    Partisan warfare/Bandenkampf

    "The Devonshires Held This Trench, The Devonshires Hold It Still" - Devonshire Cemetery, Mametz

    "Come on, you sons of b*thces, do you want to live forever?" - Sergeant Major Dan Daly, Marine Corps, Belleau Wood

  6. #1516

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    I hope these Skulls will find a good resting place, on the pictures provided it seems like they are unsorted, do you try to sort them, so that every bone is with the Soldier they belonged to, or are they buried like they died, together, as enemys or as friends?

    Personally i would not feel comfortable owning a helmet that rested with the soldier in his muddy, lonely grave, do you also keep and sell the helmets that where found with the fallen, and if not what happends with them? I clarify that i dont judge if you would also sell these pices, they are dead and dont need them anymore, just a personal preference.

    In any case, may the victims of this awfull War rest in peace.

  7. #1517

    Default

    Adravor,

    As an archaeologist, (when I'm not in my day job as an EOD Operator). I have conducted conflict archaeology around the world from both WW1 and WW2 as well as other lesser conflicts. As such I can definitively say that all items need to be exhumed with the bodies and then methodically checked for personal details. All items should be turned over to the authorities including the highlighting of any detail that indicates the identity. In a very real sense the fallen soldier has been robbed of their identity. To fall short during the excavation and fail to identify the soldier when it is possible robs them of their name for a second time. I have no idea to what extent the authorities are prepared to go to identify the remains but suspect that it is not a huge amount. Sale of the items not related to bodies I have no feelings on but until the possibility of an ID has been eliminated then personal kit should stay with the body.

    An example we had was:

    1, Soldier found on a WW1 battlefield.
    2. Equipment found indicated that he was commonwealth probably Australian.
    3. No name available and Dog tag recovered was corroded and had de-laminated making the reading impossible.
    4. Multiple EOD found with the body including Grenades and SAA. Whilst clearing this I located both No5 grenades and also a No28 Grenade.

    The No 28 grenade was a Gas grenade with a lachramatory filling and quite unusual. Checking the records we could say that the soldier fell during one specific battle due to that being the only one there with Australians. The war diary's narrowed it down to one regiment. Also it stated what the ammunition issued was for the assault troops in the first wave and also what the follow up troops were issued, this included two No28 grenades for clearing and intact dug outs. So we knew he was Australian, his Regiment, the battle and casualty list and the fact he was second wave. It transpired that only about 10 men died during that second wave as the battle had pushed forwards. Isotopic analysis of his teeth gave us his place of birth and where he came from in Australia. This narrowed it down to three people, then with so few we got DNA from him and the relatives which gave us a 99.9% hit with a name and full deatails.

    A very long winded way to say it but without even a small piece of evidence, the No28 Gren we would have been faced with well over 100 possibilities for this soldier and identification would most likely have been impossible / impractical, (Isotopic analysis and DNA for one man is about £1000). The good news is that he was buried with full military honours with his relatives at the grave side.

    On WW1 battle fields we have about a 60 to 70 % success rate identifying the recovered soldier. The Germans believe it or not in WW1 contexts are easier to I'D when found due to the surviving records, (A large part of the British OR's records were destroyed in 39-45 by the Blitz in London). The VDK are as cash strapped as the CWGC but if you narrow the possibilities down sufficiently then something can be done.

    I hope that this in some way shows the importance of the items, a name in a helmet or engraved on a spoon, both common occurrences is all that is needed to give that soldier a burial and his name back.

    As for werwolf12's comments. Will someone please ban him now. Even if it was a joke it is in such bad taste that he needs removing.

  8. #1518

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    Quote by werwolf12 View Post
    How about the human skulls, are they for sale also?
    No words to express my feelings as an old soldier myself about this creature.

    Well, there is one word but I wouldn't dream using it in present company here

    Am I being unjust or has this user previously been associated with something offensive here?

    Even if this is the first instance he is certainly OFF my Christmas card list!

    I can't wait to hear his explanation.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  9. #1519

    Default

    Quote by vegetius View Post
    Adravor,

    As an archaeologist, (when I'm not in my day job as an EOD Operator). I have conducted conflict archaeology around the world from both WW1 and WW2 as well as other lesser conflicts. As such I can definitively say that all items need to be exhumed with the bodies and then methodically checked for personal details. All items should be turned over to the authorities including the highlighting of any detail that indicates the identity. In a very real sense the fallen soldier has been robbed of their identity. To fall short during the excavation and fail to identify the soldier when it is possible robs them of their name for a second time. I have no idea to what extent the authorities are prepared to go to identify the remains but suspect that it is not a huge amount. Sale of the items not related to bodies I have no feelings on but until the possibility of an ID has been eliminated then personal kit should stay with the body.

    An example we had was:

    1, Soldier found on a WW1 battlefield.
    2. Equipment found indicated that he was commonwealth probably Australian.
    3. No name available and Dog tag recovered was corroded and had de-laminated making the reading impossible.
    4. Multiple EOD found with the body including Grenades and SAA. Whilst clearing this I located both No5 grenades and also a No28 Grenade.

    The No 28 grenade was a Gas grenade with a lachramatory filling and quite unusual. Checking the records we could say that the soldier fell during one specific battle due to that being the only one there with Australians. The war diary's narrowed it down to one regiment. Also it stated what the ammunition issued was for the assault troops in the first wave and also what the follow up troops were issued, this included two No28 grenades for clearing and intact dug outs. So we knew he was Australian, his Regiment, the battle and casualty list and the fact he was second wave. It transpired that only about 10 men died during that second wave as the battle had pushed forwards. Isotopic analysis of his teeth gave us his place of birth and where he came from in Australia. This narrowed it down to three people, then with so few we got DNA from him and the relatives which gave us a 99.9% hit with a name and full deatails.

    A very long winded way to say it but without even a small piece of evidence, the No28 Gren we would have been faced with well over 100 possibilities for this soldier and identification would most likely have been impossible / impractical, (Isotopic analysis and DNA for one man is about £1000). The good news is that he was buried with full military honours with his relatives at the grave side.

    On WW1 battle fields we have about a 60 to 70 % success rate identifying the recovered soldier. The Germans believe it or not in WW1 contexts are easier to I'D when found due to the surviving records, (A large part of the British OR's records were destroyed in 39-45 by the Blitz in London). The VDK are as cash strapped as the CWGC but if you narrow the possibilities down sufficiently then something can be done.

    I hope that this in some way shows the importance of the items, a name in a helmet or engraved on a spoon, both common occurrences is all that is needed to give that soldier a burial and his name back.

    As for werwolf12's comments. Will someone please ban him now. Even if it was a joke it is in such bad taste that he needs removing.
    Good post and excellent worthy work. I agree with every word. Sadly there are a great many "black diggers" whose only concern is profit and their "spoils" often appear on Ebay which is ironic given the stance taken by that platform regarding the swastika for instance. An icon which is thousands of years old, still remains extant as a symbol of good fortune in many eastern cultures and was only "borrowed" or more aptly misappropriated by the Nazi regime.

    Sometimes (I would say justly), they do find something they didn't expect and following a short rapid flight upwards they end up sharing the grave they just distubed. Nemesis I call that.

    KIA soldiers of whatever nation all ended in the same circumstances and regardless of the regime they served are entitled to basic human respect. Identification is a major part of that respect. As Rod says, removal of artifacts (over and above the disrespect towards human remains) before this has been fully explored can drastically impede the process and is something beyond wicked to my mind.
    In my trade, aside from the human element, this is known as "tampering/interfering with / removing evidence".

    That said, this is great thread from an historical point of view and I hope that one "fly in the ointment" will not be allowed to spoil it.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  10. #1520

    Default

    Mark,

    Our good friend Jb4046 sent me this: My 20mm Collection check out post 6! Once may be an error. Two is confirmation.

    Yes this creature needs removing.

    R

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