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Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

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  1. #821

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Quote by Steve T View Post
    Well I am flabbergasted. Here's a guy, digging important relics out of the ground and showing them to us, and a couple of us decide to challenge their authenticity !

    Do you believe that Eismeerfront is deliberately posting replica relics to boost his ego or sales of the relics ? Why on earth would he, especially when he isn't using the forum to promote sales in any way ? Indeed, I am not sure he even sells his items.
    Hi Steve, as stated in post #6 all relics are for sale. Even the panzer on the first page.
    Looking for the photo albums of Leutnant Emil Freitag, 3. / G.R. 377

  2. #822

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Quote by Mil Spec View Post
    Yes, according to the '800' stamp -it is 80% pure silver. That is essentially coin quality.

    As noted by Wagriff, it is curious the '800' proof mark is stamped on the outside of the band. Even more curious, it is stamped in incuse relief.

    Seeing what it looked like right out of the ground will tell if it is indeed genuine......... or not.
    The ring is of period. You appear to have some knowledge, but are stretching it a long way.

    For a start, one look at the markings show that they are typical of Hanau silver. These 'hallmarks' are actually more often called 'pseudo hallmarks' as they were either slightly altered copies or completely invented by the makers and not official.

    It is uncommon to see markings on the outside of the shank, but again not unheard of, especially where Hanau silver is concerned. There is also no problem with the '800' stamp being incuse on this type of silver ring The other stamp is very likely going to be difficult to pin down to a particular maker as there were literally thousands of different ones used over time and many have never been verified to a particular one.

    Hanau silver was famous for producing 'revivalist antique' silverware and also the popular late 19th early 20th century 'fantasy' jewellrey that is still popular today.

    As regarding your statement "The ring did not look like this when it was found". What do you mean? I assume you have no problems with any other of Maxim's finds, rings or otherwise, as most are shown 'as found' and then later when cleaned.(See post #694 and #700, and possibly #723 and #804) Do I understand correctly that because the Hanau made ring is probably the only one not photographed 'as found' then you think it is bogus? Silver does not corrode like plated or washed does, just take a look at any Romano-British or Viking silver straight out of the ground after several hundred years, no difference, and most of poorer quality too.

    Suffice to say, I am happy with the ring it's condition, where it was made and when, and have no problem with the 'hallmarks' being on the outside of the shank.

    It is my opinion that Maxim has no need to prove anything to you, he has always played square with many members here who have acquired unquestionably 100% original items from him and are very happy with them. Of course, sometimes there are naysayers, funnily enough nearly everyone a noob like yourself who appears to have an axe to grind or to be controversial for their own reasons. Well that's up to you, but do a bit more homework before you choose to extrapolate your singular thoughts and question a good mans integrity.

    Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  3. #823

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    So I have a death card for a man who fought and died with "Nord" at Karelia and I would love a relic helmet from the region to display with it. Do you have any cheap relic helmets for sale from Karelia? It does not need to have an SS decal. I would just like a relic from the region.
    Looking for WWII U.S. dog tags

  4. #824

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Actually, with all of the SS dog tags, cap skulls and eagles, helmets, grenades, canteens, messkits and what all...the occasional Rings are FAR from the most highest resale value things dug. William
    ......which adds even more weight to my previous post regarding replicas. Why post a replica of such an item when it doesn't carry as much re-sale value as other items ? It makes no sense at all.

    Quote by donkihotis7 View Post
    Hi Steve, as stated in post #6 all relics are for sale. Even the panzer on the first page.
    I stand corrected. Many thanks for pointing this out. Even with this fact I do not for a second think that someone would go to the lengths of posting over 80 pages of finds and comment just to try and flog some supposedly 'fake' rings. It makes no sense at all. If Maxim wanted to flog fake rings, why not just post them anonymously on e-bay rather than post them up here ???

    Now, can we please allow this post to get back on track. All too often this post has been de-railed by people throwing all kinds of mud a Maxim. We have no reason to doubt his integrity but plenty of evidence to PROVE it.

    Back to you Maxim.

    Steve T

  5. #825
    ?

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Good points from everyone , perhaps our new member hasn't taken the time to actually read all 80 pages of this thread whcih always seems to be the case with those with little knowledge of ground dug items !!
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  6. #826

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    My point exactly,Steve. Maxim unearths Many valuable and rare relics, and the once in awhile ring is nowhere near the top of the value list. Like you say, it wouldn't make sense to work so hard to dig up treasures out in the wilderness in the bugs and mud and slip in a mediocre value fake once in awhile. It's always been my contention that Maxim is of absolute integrity and to doubt something as mundane as a ring is inexplicable. Some of the things he has produced from these excavations as shown in his 2 threads are beyond amazement. I, for one, would be More than pleased to have such a ring in my possession such as shown in #802. William
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  7. #827

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Quote by Paul E View Post
    ...perhaps our new member hasn't taken the time to actually read all 80 pages of this thread whcih always seems to be the case with those with little knowledge of ground dug items !!
    Actually Paul I have... and in my very first post on this site (#778 of this thread), complimented both Andrey and Maxim on their work.

    However, when I asked to see a pic of the ring in #802 as it was found -and before I passed judgement... he no longer understood enough English to understand what I was asking. I PM'd William (the first defense poster) the specifics of why I was asking to see the ring in it's original state -and he responded, sort of, in an open post -not a PM. Still no photo as it was found.

    Okay, here is why I was asking for a photo of the ring as it was found (and more information for those wishing to create fakes and con other collectors)...

    In terms of what we collect, the following is true:

    1. Gold is the only metallic element (as used in badges and insignia) that does not tarnish or corrode.

    2. Silver ('800' and purer content) tarnishes black in a short amount of time... unless it is plated with another compound (like Rhodium in modern insignia) to prevent corrosion. These advanced coatings were not commonplace, and relied on the individual to keep the item cleaned and polished. [I have a '800' grade personal ring commemorating an SS veteran's escape during the 'German Dunkirk' from the Crimean peninsula. If I don't keep it cleaned and polished -it turns black within a couple of months. The ring in question looked like what after 65 years?] Silver plated and frosted items are the same -however, repeated cleaning and polishing eventually removes the silver from the base metal.

    3. Bronze & brass, with a high copper content will tarnish and corrode in stages... the 'greener' the patina, the newer the corrosion. They seldom, if ever, rust -as this would indicate an iron content. Colors in the patina range from greens, purples, browns to grays and blacks... all stages that indicate age.

    4. Ferrous-based metals (iron, steel, etc.) will begin to rust in short order. The 'redder' the rust, the newer the rust. The color and depth of the rust will indicate age and will range from reds (new & surface rust), to browns and eventually very dark -almost black. The depth of the corrosion is telltale as well. If you find black rust only on the surface, or red rust in deep pitting -it has been doctored.

    5. Aluminum & zinc-based alloys will corrode with the typical 'grayish, dusty' appearance. Over time, the corrosion will remove most, if not all, surface details... resulting in a gray piece of metal that 'is in the shape of, or vaguely resembles' a specific badge or insignia. Shiny or well detailed aluminum found after 65 years should raise eyebrows.

    6. German Tombak material is another alloy with various elements combined. In truth, I know little about it's corrosive tendencies over many decades of decay, so I will not comment on this material.

    Much like police forensics, age can be determined from the appearance of the corrosion or tarnish. This ring (#802) may have been found black and cleaned (Tarn-X comes to mind) and resulted in a dull, unpolished finish... but I'd like to see it black, as it should be. Also, it is common knowledge that rings are stamped or engraved while they are flat -that could explain the cut and resulting crack on the other side of the '800' stamp. The rings with the silver frosted appearance (#804) appear to be rusty red where the frosted finish has worn off... well, if they are indeed bronze, this wouldn't be. There are many ID discs shown here (all were made from aluminum or Al-based alloy, if I recall correctly) that appear to have rusted -indicating ferrous metal content. These should be questioned as well.

    I do not dispute that these individuals are digging long-forgotten battlefields, nor do I dispute (pray) that they are indeed returning discovered bodies to their families or nationalities for proper burial.

    I do see the strong possibility that some embellishment is going on here -even if merely for resale to continue funding the work. Again, without the photo that I asked for... it is only my opinion that something is not on the up and up, and a strong possibility that peoples' emotions about these MIA's is being manipulated for financial gain.


    I have never ventured to 'EU' based sites and was referred by another member here that I trust. So, as for me being a 'noob'... sure, I'm a noob to this website... but I am not a noob collector.

    Have you earned one of these? Paul? Ned? Steve? Bill? Anyone?

    Point made... I'll keep my commentary to PM's.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #828
    ?

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Very impressive award !! Who are you then ?? I was in Bragg many years ago with my Regiment on an exchange , are you Airborne ?

    Glad you have perused this thread , you will probably find that Maxim hasn't responded himself as he is back in the forest as the digging season goes on until the first snows , well have to await his return for his response and more phots .

    Welcome to a EU based forum !!!
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  9. #829

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Thank you Paul.

    I am no longer as heavily involved in TR collecting as I once was. In fact, there are many things that "I was" that I am not anymore. My location is one of my haunts, but no longer a residence. I choose to stay anonymous in my postings, as there is too much freely-accessed information on the web these days. Aside from the interference of any ill-willed moderator, I shall remain so.

    I have sold off most of my award collection and the pieces I have chosen to keep will go to an heir on my passing... or placed in a museum.

    Maxim is/was present enough to respond in post #811... but not to my request. I have been PM'd by others stating the same happened to them, when he was pressed with questions.

    I too, was glazed over with respect and memories upon reading the thread the first time. Questions began when I started looking at the details. The 'devil is in the details' in this hobby and too many questions came to mind that I felt compelled to start asking.

    And, as to my giving away information to the forgers of the world... I didn't even touch on texture, smell or taste. Yes, taste. That information I will keep to myself.

    BTW, I don't peruse the WAF for obvious reasons... I wouldn't like to see their influence spread here as well.

  10. #830

    Default Re: Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

    Well...apparently, that makes Me one of the "defense posters"....so,on that note, I'll answer a couple of your questions, I guess. No, I do not have nor have I ever had a MAX show award. Probably for the simple reason that when I was collecting, they never Had MAX shows-they were far in the unseen future of my collecting days. If they Would have had such things, I am sure that I would have easily set out a display on TR militaria and periphery that would have quite capably garnered an award. In the 45-50 years I've been involved with the hobby, I've only recently even gone online. I would imagine that today, there are many a centerpiece in prominent collectors collections throughout the country and beyond that once resided in my home. Over the years, I, too-like yourself, have sold off most of my collection and now simply mostly watch and help others with their collecting interests. Gone are the days of taking bank loans on my house to make another rare acquisition -no more feeling the thrill and accelerated heartrates of finding and possessing treasures none else had. In alot of ways, I'm almost glad. I sit back and watch the "X Files" "Trust No One" motto intruding more and more into the collecting fields and I tell myself "Good thing I'm not still out there hunting-then I'D have to be dealing with all these headaches!" I don't imagine that most people would even recognize or remember me at this point, but maybe they would. Anonymous? Why bother? My name is William A. Griffith. Maybe that name might stir a few memories here and there -maybe not, but I can certainly see no reason to keep it incognito. To get into a boasting rights match and play the game of "I was a bigger collector than you" serves no purpose to anyone. This is, though, the last time I intend to "compare my credentials" with anyone. Such things smack too closely to bragging and that is an ugly thing in anyone's book. However...I Do truthfully believe that the last 50 years have given me just a tiny bit of learning and just maybe an eye for things on occasion. Who knows....this is one reason I backed out of this hobby-even back then. William
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

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