A humble plea for future generations

[Jan]

Just got this "offer"...


I hope you take a minute to read it through. I will not comment further on this issue...

Best,

Jan



Question:

“I have a question about battlefield relics. Any tips on who to buy from & what to look for?

I'm all for preserving these artifacts with museums & for getting them back to the family of the fallen if possible but I would like to acquire some items that are already on the market. I know you're an expert in this field (great work w/ Iron Cross magazine by the way!) so I figured you were the man to ask.

I would really like to acquire a ground dug Heer or Luftwaffe helmet & a Wound Badge. While I have collected numerous Third Reich items over the last year I have grown a bit pessimistic due to all of the fakes present on the market and that's what has drawn me to ground dug relics. I would rather have a legitimate battlefield relic in horrendous condition than a fake in pristine condition. All of my non-ground dug items thus far match reference books but I have no doubts some fakes have accidentally made their way into the reference books. A battlefield relic dug by a reputable person is a sure fire way to know your item is 100% real.

I am sure there are plenty of fake ground dug items as well but I figured you would personally know the best people to source these items from given your background.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!”
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Answer:

Born in 1962 and having seen things develop into the mayhem it is today I hope you stop to read the following sentences very carefully…

The untouched and still mostly undocumented WW2 conflict archaeology heritage over here in Europe and the material culture of the 2nd World War is just years away from being totally lost to the greed of detectorists and traders of these mostly illegally dug relics.

I ask you, please do not support this industry.


Best,

Jan

WW2 conflict archaeologist

[HARRY THE MOLE]

I like your reply, but your request will go unheeded. You need to look no further than the posts on WRF to see the scale of the problem.

Cheers,
Steve

[Gunny Hartmann]

Great reply.

[HetzersGonnaHetz]

Good reply Jan, measured and well put. You didn't take an attacking tone or the like, and it reads as if you accept that this person may well just not understand the situation that we are in with conflict archaeology and those who seek to undermine it (eg illegal diggers). Hopefully this person listens to your advice and realises whats at hand, rather than becoming disgruntled with the response. Fortunately there are still a few diggers and archaeologists who do it properly and sell with the history still intact, and I applaud them for that, but as you know, there are also many others who aren't like the good ones.

Regards
Harvey

[AndyM35]

Yes, a very poignant response Jan. Ironically I was only looking at eBay last night and was astounded at the number of relic German helmets and other items that were for sale. There seemed to be a huge increase in items from just a few years ago. The lack of disregard for what amounts to someone’s last resting place is both sad and very troubling and I don’t really know what preventative action can be taken at this point in time.

Andy

[Niedersachsen]

Sorry to be blunt, but:
WW2 conflict archeology has only recently gained some attention from archeologists, who are still mostly focused on sites from before 1900 anyways. Even WW1 is only recently getting some (!) attention from professional archeologists. In general however, ground dug relics from WW2 are far from most archeologists minds. Perhaps this is not surprising:
- Europe was and is still littered with relics from WWII. They are far from 'unique'.
- We simply can't pay tax money to archeologists who venture into the forests for days and days on end to find scattered remains of German and Allied gear, or dig an occasional dump pit or trench. If it wasn't for military enthusiasts starting to venture into the forests as early as the 1970's, these precious items would simply rot away. And they will, because archeologists won't retrieve it either.

In short, these items wouldn't be 'totally lost to the greed of detectorists and traders of these mostly illegally dug relics.' No, they would rot away. Decay in the corrosive forest soil or be destroyed by the farmers plough.
Given the sheer amount of relics being dug, especially from the Eastern front, it is no wonder there's a market available for it.
And yes indeed, you may be walking over someone's final resting place. Someone unidentified, whose family has no idea what happened to him. I can show you plenty of examples of MIA's being found by detectorists. There's search groups on the eastern front (yes, 'illegal detectorists'!) who dedicate themselves solely to finding MIA's. Again because tax money isn't being made available to do it proper.

I've made a few attempts to present my relics from WWII to German Heimatvereine, professional historians and museums. Their reply is lukewarm, at best. The replies I got from the three families I returned personal WWII relics too, were far more joyous. I can also show you plenty of examples of families across the world being returned personal items by detectorists. It's a sport to find something personal and being able to return it nowadays! Nothing to do with greed. Would be a pity if personal items like dogtags and engraved mess tins remain to rot in the soil or wait to be hit by the plough!

My plea to future generations, specifically detectorists and professional archeologists: please work together to the fullest extent to save WWII archeological heritage from decay, plough or forestry work. Write new laws that legalizes metal detecting (in cooperation with archeologists), create platforms for cooperation and co-creation, and create a platform which allows detectorists to document and record finds.

Chris

[francis]

Hi Chris, what a breath of fresh air to read your points about this subject.

I am totally fed up with being described of or thought of, as is portrayed in the description in this thread. Some professional, large groups do indeed fit this description, and their motives can hardly be interpreted as honourable. But this by no means covers anyone (myself included) that I know who goes detecting.

You make a valid point with regards to museum interest or in fact ANY interest, unless it is something that a 'collector' desires and doesn't already own or it has a monetary value. To be honest, most of the pieces dug up by myself are junk. Yes JUNK. With no monetary value or indeed collectable value to anyone else but to me. Some of the more interesting bits CAN be bought and usually very cheaply. But the real value is in the work involved, (finding it) the fact it tells a story (location) and above all that it is authentic. I must confess to being a little deflated when I have spent hours in the rain, (soaked and knackered) and found only a few bits and bobs. But these bits and bobs are precious to me. Then you see the piece that you consider treasure, something that you may be immensely proud of selling at a car boot, in a box of half dozen, plus more besides, for only maybe 5 Euros! But you get over that disappointment. I worked for this and I have personally saved it from rotting away, being broken up or not being appreciated/respected for its history, its story or what it symbolises.


About a year ago, after I had been detecting for about 3 years, I finally found a beautiful piece of German history. It was of excellent quality material and a great example demonstrating what we already know of German standards and practicality. The item....... a German tent peg. Tactile and beautifully crafted from mere aluminium I couldn't believe my luck. A huge (and obviously well investigated over the years) field that yielded a French coin.......and my tent peg. Over 4 hours in this field and that was my reward. But I had four hours to appreciate nature, wild deer, the French countryside and to remember, reflect on what had occurred here. This is a common thread which runs through my hobby for me. Buttons, gas mask noses and eye pieces. Worthless, common and unwanted. They make my effort worth while. They were held, used and carried by a person. We all know what these men went through or can at least try to imagine. Now I have a link and a memory to this. I feel privileged, lucky and often humble.
Then there are the endless hours cleaning and investigating these bits of history.

Your points about returning items to relevant family etc. Yes, we do this.... or spend hours trying at least.

Not linked to the line above, but with a common thread......I once spent an afternoon giving out a bag full brass fuse pieces from (exploded) American shells I had found in Normandy.... to (mostly) American, elderly visitors at Omaha visitor centre at Point-du-Hoc.
I had taken them home to England and having cleaned and polished the better examples, bought them back as gifts that would surely mean more to those who had made this pilgrimage than to me. These finds are easy for me to have, to own, but something so commonplace and 'worthless' are anything but for these visitors.

I have donated permanently and for no cost or recognition several large items to small family owned collections/museums, such as 3 links of Sherman tank track complete with original stencilled part numbers clearly showing........Yep, I distinctly remember that exact spot, I also distinctly remember that it took me a whole day to dig that from a metre+ depth and get it to my van. Have you tried to lug a piece like this clogged with mud almost a mile across muddy ploughed fields alone, IN JANUARY?

I have never sold and never will sell ANYTHING I have found. If someone wants ANY item I have because it genuinely means more to them (and they do not intend to sell it) I will gladly present it to them for free, and enjoy doing so.
When I find the time, I intend to post some images of the more interesting (to me at least) finds on here in case others may find them as interesting as I do.

I am a man of my word, so if indeed an item does link a fellow forum member to a relative, or bring to life a memory then feel free to ask.

My hobby is truly and genuinely, a labour of love and in a small way it keeps the memories of this period, (WW 2) and the suffering undertaken, alive, irrespective of country.

I think it highly unfair to judge a 'digger' such as myself, whom I (rightly or wrongly) consider to have a lot of respect and morals on this subject, with such a general and uninformed view/opinion.

How can one judge? Look at some of these undeniably impressive collections shown off on this very forum. Not withstanding the countless others held or hidden away. Just where do some of THESE items originate? They have links to The Dead, the Heroic, some are highly symbolic, I'm referring to pain, loss, suffering. Most are held by no-one but a person who wants To Collect. To Own....To Impress. With absolutely no connection or personal link to the subject. I don't want to sound horrible, but there is a lot of (I suspect) ego involved here. The power and satisfaction of owning that item that everybody wants, but just cannot get. These wonderful collections, are they on public view, are they available to anyone who wants to see and dare I say even handle them? These items were often simply bought. Yep, just splash the cash and be a proud owner of this rare and desirable artefact. I am of course being flippant and slightly hypocritical, but bloody hell. Stop being so judgemental, live and let live and maybe just take a little look at yourself and ask some searching questions, regarding your motives and the story behind YOUR acquisition. Its not all black and white.

To finish off my rant I would just like to say. I am proud of the work and effort I have put into obtaining my worthless (monetarily) collection. It is obtained legally and at no inconvenience or loss to others. It is now available to anybody, saved from lost obscurity. When I die anything I have will be offered to any museums or any person free of charge should they want them. I do not consider myself an owner, merely a temporary guardian. I wanted to finish with a melodramatic floury and boldly ask the question: what am I doing that is so wrong? But I suspect I will merely open up a 'can of worms' and get roasted.

But to hell with it, Ill take that risk.

With no wish to offend, respectfully

Francis

[rbminis]

I think it highly unfair to judge a 'digger' such as myself, whom I (rightly or wrongly) consider to have a lot of respect and morals on this subject, with such a general and uninformed view/opinion.

How can one judge? Look at some of these undeniably impressive collections shown off on this very forum. Not withstanding the countless others held or hidden away. Just where do some of THESE items originate? They have links to The Dead, the Heroic, some are highly symbolic, I'm referring to pain, loss, suffering. Most are held by no-one but a person who wants To Collect. To Own....To Impress. With absolutely no connection or personal link to the subject. I don't want to sound horrible, but there is a lot of (I suspect) ego involved here. The power and satisfaction of owning that item that everybody wants, but just cannot get. These wonderful collections, are they on public view, are they available to anyone who wants to see and dare I say even handle them? These items were often simply bought. Yep, just splash the cash and be a proud owner of this rare and desirable artefact. I am of course being flippant and slightly hypocritical, but bloody hell. Stop being so judgemental, live and let live and maybe just take a little look at yourself and ask some searching questions, regarding your motives and the story behind YOUR acquisition. Its not all black and white.

With no wish to offend, respectfully

Francis

Hello Francis,
Maybe you are one of the few, (comparatively), diggers that does this for the right reasons, but, there are many, many, more that do not. They are in it strictly for what they can sell their items for. For them, it is all about the money.

Since you are NOT a collector, I think it is unfair for you to judge all of the collectors here that are proud of their collections, and display them here.
Many items have been handed down from family members. Many are picked up at flea markets, and 2nd hand stores, because their rightful owners didn't want them any more, and they held no value to them anymore. These items are lucky to be found by someone that actually cares about the history behind them. Some even found in the garbage!

I worked in a recycle facility for a while, and while I was there, I discovered basically a doctor's bag full of medals, papers, a watch, and many other things that came from a Doctor. He had participated in WW II, and I believe Korea as well. He had gone on to be a doctor in one of the hospitals where I live.
I saved his Vimy pilgrimage medal, and a few others. I also have some lapel pins and other things from his time as a doctor here. I believe I have his kilt pin as well.
What was I supposed to do, leave them in the garbage? His family certainly didn't want them anymore. I only regret not taking the whole bag, and all of the contents. Maybe somewhere down the road, a later descendant would like to have them back.

As I live in Canada, please suggest how I can just go out into the forest and dig for relics from WW II?
I have no choice, I have to buy anything I am looking for to add to my collection.

That being said, I have a few items that were handed down to me by my mother after my father passed. They are my father's EK II and Panzerkampf Abzeichen, and they were awarded to him. He was a member of the 16th Panzer Div. and I'm sure he was involved in the Battle of the Korsun–Cherkasy Pocket, he was 17 at the time.
His uniform is gone, his soldbuch is gone, as well as many other things from that era, I can't get them back.

I had many family members that served with the Germans during WW II, and my collection focuses mostly on items they could, or would, have earned or worn. Do I have some items in my collection that are not related to family members, yes, but they are not my focus.

I had no family in the Kriegsmarine, so I generally do not look for items in this field.

I did not have any known family that served in the DRK, but as a knife collector, of course, I had to have a DRK hewer.
Any items that I collect related to that are strictly to fit into a display.

I do collect an absolute minimum of political items as none of my family were political members, and I do not support the ideology, again, (had to have a dagger).

IMO, if it weren't for collectors, a lot more of this "stuff" would go into the garbage because no one would want it!

No disrespect intended, and the end of my rant, it is not all black and white!

Respectfully,
Ralph.

[vegetius]

When not conducting my day job in EOD I am also a fully qualified (and very experienced archaeologist if I say so myself). About 20 years ago I strayed into 'Conflict Archaeology' mainly through the absolute need for real EOD qualified personnel on site. As they discovered they had a two for one I have ever since received many invites to participate on a huge number of very professional and fascinating digs.

To be morally and ethically sound all conflict archaeology has to follow the normal archaeological rules and standards, one of which is that intrusive work, (digging) is the last option and only takes place with a strong justification. Secondly, all work is recorded to the normal high standards. All archaeology is destruction, once removed from the ground that object is lost to history in context and only with correct recording can this be maintained. Thirdly, no item ever recovered is sold. They are investigated and researched and then offered to the relevant museums or placed in an official repository.

As I said at the beginning I came to this through EOD. Digging is dangerous the EOD encountered is leathal. This is not a subject for amatures! Even if you have the ability to recognise the item, or even understand how it works exactly unless you have been formally trained in EOD and fully understand the threat assessment criteria as well as the actions to take with regards those items.
People who handle and ignore the dangers are committing euthanasia through stupidity. Please spare a thought for those of us who have to come along and scrape the remains up and then investigate the random buffoonery that caused the demise of this years Darwin Award winner. Oh, and yes I have had to do it far too often.

I am not being sanctimonious or judgemental of any individual, but as someone who works in this field for a living and is lucky enough to be considered and expert (in both of the fields I work in) I fully understand the desire to do this, but I also fully understand the damage to our heritage and risk to life that these activities create.

[francis]

Good afternoon Ralph.
thank you for your views and for your understanding also the time you have taken to educate me. I was clearly overgeneralising and I understand and respect other peoples desire and passion for this hobby. I tried to express this by signing out as a 'rant' so as not to imply anything more serious I suppose.

I agree with all your points and I'm guessing that the original dig (pun intended) was aimed mainly at those digging on the Eastern areas that we have all seen on Youtube that are so prolific and fit the original negative description. Its a massively grey area and it is saddening to see these digging in Russian/German battlegrounds with such disregard for the many remains still there. The purely financial motivation just doesn't feel right either. But.... I still feel loath to judge.

I specifically keep to certain areas, that have been searched and cleared over and over during the past 70 years or so. I'm generally picking at scraps that have been missed, or not wanted. It takes a lot of time and work to find anything really good these days because of this. But sometimes i do get lucky.
To see what these 'Eastern' diggers are finding is often amazing and a part of me would love to dig up artefacts like these. But there are still many human remains in that region and for me it would feel highly disrespectful to visit here.
As I say, there are plenty of different nuances involved or 'grey areas' so its important to try to comprehend and respect the greatly varying views. Because of this, everyone is right and everyone is wrong to differing degrees and for different reasons.

Thank you again and I would like to iterate....I meant no offence to any one person or group. I was merely trying to make a point to contradict the negative view directed at diggers, that was equally overgeneralising.
Respectfully
Francis