RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

[Steve T]

Holy crap!!! That is just a fantastic bit of ID work there pitfighter !!!!!

The handle is bang on, as is the chape, and the action is almost certainly a Remington. I've just found a picture of the internals of the Remington and it looks like a match to me

Many many thanks

[pitfighter]

My pleasure - I am very impressed you are finding this material in the UK - it must be refuse dating back to the glory days of the British Empire, or first and second Afghan wars, the arrow head looks East Indian, too - very cool.

Pit.

[Steve T]

Arrowhead! Of course !

If you're ever in England pitfighter, I owe you a night out down a good English pub

[harryamb2]

I go with pitfighter,definitly middleast

[Steve T]

I am so chuffed I've taken some more photos and moved the three items into the war room for safety



Here is the Remington action up close. It did have two pieces extending from the rear but one fell off during cleaning



.......but it looked just like this You can even see the remains of the black rod coming off the lower portion of the rear bit.....



The Khyber Pass knife may well have some decoration under the grime. Needs more cleaning......





.....but these pictures certainly confirm what it is !





As for the arrowhead, can't find a picture of one to compare it to but it certainly appears plausible, especially given the above two finds.




I am never normally one for getting excited about non-WW2 stuff, but these pieces certainly HAVE got me going !!



Well chuffed.

[m3bobby]

Steve, I have an identical Remi section the same as yours found last year. What do you think of your Japanese arisaka bayonet? That must be the first Japanese item found there.

[davejb]

I noticed that as well i compared it to my Arisaka and its more or less the same hooked quillion, but i assumed Steve knew what it was, and your right M3, i think it is the first Japanese bayonet found there

[pitfighter]

I don't think that's an arrowhead, looking at it from the second angle - but the pattern on it does look middle eastern.
It's a mounting of somekind - it is vaguely familiar.

Can you find anything out about the nature of the dump, and why there was old ordnance there?

Pit.

[TonyE]

I agree the identification of the action as that of a Remington Rolling Block rifle. I am fascinated that you found this at a British army dump.

In 1915 the Royal Navy were desperate for weapons and sent Sir Trevor Dawson, the Deputy Chairman of Vickers, to the United States to purchase whatever rifles he could. He bought 20,000 Winchester M1992 rifles, 4,000 Remington Model 14 1/2 rifles, both in .44-40 calibre, and 4,500 Remington Rolling Block M1901 rifles in 7x57mm calibre. 1,000 of the Rolling Blocks were used refurbished rifles but upon inspection in the UK were found to be in poor condition so were relegated to Drill Purpose (DP) standard and used for drill and training.

When yours has been cleaned it may be possible to check the upper tang for the patent date (if it has survived) or for possible DP stamps.. (see attached pictures)

At the same time the New Armies were also very short of weapons but I have never seen any evidence that any Rolling Blocks were transferred from the RN to the army, so unless the RN trained on that camp it is an important new piece of information. BTW, the "black rod" you mantion at the rear of the action is the mainspring!

Now to the bayonet with the hooked quillion. It could well be for an Arisaka as the New Armies were equipped with both Type 30 and Type 38 Japanese rifles (Pattern 1900 and 1907 in British service). However, I think it more likely that it is the remains of an early Pattern '07 bayonet for the SMLE. SMLE bayonets were manufactured with a hooked quillion until 1913 when they were discontinued due to the hook catching in web equipment etc. Virtually all the hooked P.'07 bayonets in service had the hooks removed by armourers at the unit level but a number survived and are of course much valued today. It may be possible to tell which it is when it has been cleaned.

Regards
TonyE

[m3bobby]

Now to the bayonet with the hooked quillion. It could well be for an Arisaka as the New Armies were equipped with both Type 30 and Type 38 Japanese rifles (Pattern 1900 and 1907 in British service). However, I think it more likely that it is the remains of an early Pattern '07 bayonet for the SMLE. SMLE bayonets were manufactured with a hooked quillion until 1913 when they were discontinued due to the hook catching in web equipment etc. Virtually all the hooked P.'07 bayonets in service had the hooks removed by armourers at the unit level but a number survived and are of course much valued today. It may be possible to tell which it is when it has been cleaned.

Regards
TonyE

Its defo not a 1907 hooked quillon, if you look at the end, it is angled into the wood handle area whereas the 1907 is square/straight.