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RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

Article about: Hi all Well, a very successful trip to the British army dump at the weekend. Some great finds made by all, one within 5 minutes of starting digging !!! As usual for this site, lots and lots

  1. #41

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    As promised, results of the long soak in vinegar over the weekend..........

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    Buckles, starter tabs and latches. The long starter tabs are clearly marked and the shorter ones were brass and steel. Can't find any markings on the ones I have but the two types can be differentiated by the slight curve to the end of the steel ones, the brass having a flat end.

    Not sure what the latches are off. Think they're off an ammo crate but not sure which one.

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    Close up of the latches.......

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    Close up of the MG belt starter tabs

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    The buckles and sling bits. Not sure on the smaller ones to the right of the picture so if you can help it'd be great

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    Butt plates, oiler bottles and the brass bit of Mk 2 Sten mag loading tools. These have come up very nice after 4 days in vinegar Appear to have five different types of butt plate. Long Lee and Lee Metford are the ones with the long tongues, with Lee-Enfield on the left, but what is the smaller curved butt plate off, and what about the three that appear to be different to the other LE plates.

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    Three of the butt plates have WD arrow on the oil bottle cover

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    And the oil bottles are marked as well

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    Last up the bayonet handles. The one with the curved piece appears to be Japanese and the one in the middle has the feint remains of a 'US' stamp on it. But what is it off, and what is the top one ?

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    Well pleased with the results of the cleaning. Will post some more pictures tomorrow

    Cheers

    Steve T

  2. #42

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Great results Steve, I love the WD markings that you uncovered
    LS

  3. #43

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Small latch is from the previously IDd Browning 1917 wood ammo box, the same box the 1917 ammo belt tabs would have been in. The Arisaka bayonet is looking good now! The other American bayonet is a ptn 13 bayonet and was originaly for the .276 Enfield which due to WW1 was redesigned into the .303 ptn 14 rifle AKA the P14 or Rifle No.3. When the United States joined WW1, they needed more guns, fast! And as they already had the P14 design in production for the UK, they simply converted the design to the P17 in 30-06. These P17s and associated equipment were then sold to the UK in 1940 for use by the homeguard, unfortunatly the British P14 was very similar looking to the P17 and so the P17 received a red band around the butt and forstock to denote caution to be used. The P13 bayonet also looked similar to the P1907 and so 2 grooves were made on the handles to identify it as not being a 1907.

    The butt plates show 3 SMLE on the top left, 6 SMLE across the middle and one on the bottom. The smallish butt plate could be a Martini type but its hard to see from the photo.

  4. #44

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    I forgot the top bayonet is a Canadian made Ross bayonet.

  5. #45

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Once again you've made some great and very useful ID's.
    The Japanese Bayonet is very interesting, I've pointed out (in the pic) the two pommel retaining rivets, I've also found one of these with the same rivets but mine is missing the crossguard and quillon. I've quite a comprehensive guide to bayonets and have also trawled through the net looking at images of this type but have been unable to find any that show this style of riveting?

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    Unless of course they were finished so neat and flush that the heads don't show up easily on photos of decent examples.
    Cheers
    LS

  6. #46

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Thanks M3 The rivet holes only showed up after the vinegar bath LS so they could well have been flush and unnoticeable.

  7. #47

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Here are a few bits of mine, please note that some of the bayonet handles shown were recovered on the previous visit when I first discovered this new digging area.

    First up.... I Love this, it's like cracking nuts or opening presents at Christmas, you never know what's inside!!

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    (Left) Great Britain Pattern bayonet 1888, this is MkII version introduced 1895 with two brass rivets. Used with Lee-Metford rifles but most likely Lee-Enfield .303. This bayonet had the remains of part of the scabbard attached to the blade, the top section remains.

    (Right) Turkish Mauser bayonet model 1903 (German made) used with the Turkish Mauser of 1890 which was 7.65mm cal.

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    (Left) Japan Arisaka bayonet model of 1897 used with Arisaka rifle 6.5mm. Like Steves handle posted previously two rivets hold the pommel in place.

    (Right) Norway. Norwegian Krag Jorgensen bayonet of 1894 rifle was 6.5mm, notice the remains of the locking bar.

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    Krag Jorgensen M94 section showing locking mech.

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    (Left) Great Britain bayonet pattern of 1907, this has the ordinary straight cross guard so is post 1913. Lee-Enfield .303 cal.

    (Right) German Seitengewehr model 1884/98 (third version) was in use for a long time 1910 through to 1945. The Nazis version had plastic grips.

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    (One of my favorites) A Belgium engineers bayonet of 1868 with a nice brass pommel, it would have had a long 19 inch saw backed blade.

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    (Left) German Seitengewehr model 1898/02 it would have had a 17inch saw backed blade. 7.92mm cal.

    (Right) German Seitengewehr model 1898 would have had a saw backed blade. Used 1910 to 1935 again in the Nazi era plastic grips were attached.

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    (Left) Great Britain 1907 pattern, the most famous type of British bayonet, this model is post 1913 this style was used 1907 through to 1940. For the Lee-Enfield SMLE MkIII .303 cal.

    (Right) Great Britain 1903 pattern, Parrot beak design hilt, only in use 1903 through to 1907 again Lee-Enfield SMLE .303 cal.

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    This one has me stumped ?, its bigger than the standard bayonet handle size, even the remains of the blade is thicker so could possibly be part of a sword? The only examples of bayonets/swords I've found with S shaped cross guards are German so perhaps it's German. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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    Most relics come out in very rusted condition, but here are two examples where I was lucky and they came out half decent.

    (Top) A nice Lee-Enfield Cavalry Mk1 carbine front end of 1896, this weapon was only used for 20 or so years until the cavalry units it was designed for became obsolete.

    (Bottom) Yet another Lee-Enfield SMLE No 1 MkIII front end.

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    Cavalry Mk1 Carbine.

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    Thanks for looking.
    LUCKYSTRIKE

  8. #48

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    Awesome ! Love the barrel ends Fantastic selection of bayonet handles as well. I reckon we hit the spot where they dumped the base museum

  9. #49

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    A few more bits cleaned and one very curious item that needs an ID.

    SMLE mag

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    Sten Mk 5 stock and a Belgium Bayonet handle.

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    The Elastoplast tin cleaned up nicely

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    The German Butcher Bayonet scabbard chape and a nice pistol pull through.....

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    ..........which has the WD arrow on it

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    Last up is this little bolt. Well, I say bolt but it could be a cocking handle off something or nothing to do with a weapon at all ! To begin with I thought it may be something like a De Lisle .22 bolt but it doesn't look like one from the pictures I've seen.

    Here it is with a CLLE bolt for size comparison. You can see if it is quite a small 'bolt'.

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    One surface is flat and it has a distinctive connecting piece between the two ends.

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    Also appears to have a firing pin at one end.

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    During cleaning I thought I'd broken it as it began to twist apart, but I then realised it wasn't broken and was made to come apart at the mid point. Here it is unscrewed.

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    So what the heck is it off ????

    Over to TonyE and M3 !

    Cheers

    Steve T

  10. #50
    ?

    Default Re: RRPG dig - British army dump - 21st October 2012

    The bolt is obviously from a .22 Rimfire rifle, but I don't recognise it as any specific type. It is not from a War Office Miniature Rifle but there were so many types taken into service over the years like the Mossbergs and others I am not familiar with them all.

    The cleaning rod is the standard issue type for Webleys. the length will determine which mark it is. (BTW, a pull-through is the cord with a weight on one end that is used in rifles)

    Regards
    TonyE
    British Military Smallarms and Ammunition
    Collector, Researcher and Pedant
    https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/

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