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CZ Waffenamt bayonet questions

Article about: Here is a Czech bayonet with German proofs. My understanding is that this bayonet was manufactured for the G33/40 Carbine. Is this correct? Any/all information will be appreciated. Sorry for

  1. #11

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    Thanks, Fred.



    That's the type of information that I find very informative. Appreciate it much!

  2. #12

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    Hello,

    this is a Seitengewehr 24(t) out of a Contract for the german Waffenamt. The name Vz.24 was not used.

    This bayonet was used with all kind of fixable rifels.... not only one Modell.

    Until 1939 weapons were made under german control. The "Československá zbrojovka Brno" (ČSZ) was renamed in "Zbrojovka Brno", german Name "Waffenwerke Brünn", and was associated to the "Hermann-Göring-Werke".

    The production of S24(t) / Vz24 bayonets never stoped. The first I know from 1939/40 bears the WaA63 on the tang between the grips and were made in Brünn. Also some were made for Export..to Rumania.
    In 1941-42 the production switched to Povázská Bystrica with WaA607 and A80. 1942 and 1943 the production was in Brünn.

  3. #13

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    Thanks.

    I love this site!

  4. #14

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    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    this is a Seitengewehr 24(t) out of a Contract for the german Waffenamt. The name Vz.24 was not used.

    This bayonet was used with all kind of fixable rifels.... not only one Modell.

    Until 1939 weapons were made under german control. The "Československá zbrojovka Brno" (ČSZ) was renamed in "Zbrojovka Brno", german Name "Waffenwerke Brünn", and was associated to the "Hermann-Göring-Werke".

    The production of S24(t) / Vz24 bayonets never stoped. The first I know from 1939/40 bears the WaA63 on the tang between the grips and were made in Brünn. Also some were made for Export..to Rumania.
    In 1941-42 the production switched to Povázská Bystrica with WaA607 and A80. 1942 and 1943 the production was in Brünn.
    Yes, under the standard German operating procedures of the time Seitengewehr 24(t) would be the correct way to refer to the bayonet that started the thread. With the more or less universal 4 cm rifle mounting fixture/stud enabling many different bayonets to be fitted.

    1939 seeing a number of the ex-Czech Vz. 24 rifles (marked VZ 24 on the rifle’s side rails) sent to the Mauser factory in Oberndorf where a Dr. Fleck and others evaluated them (of excellent quality in my own experience and with some U.S. authorities that give them higher ratings than some other German System 98 type rifles) making some modifications to conform to their standards (German style rifle sling etc.). Which later led to the new manufacture of the G.24(t) with the G.24(t) marking on the side rail at Bystrica in 1941 into 1942 - when Bystrica began making copies of the Kar. 98k.

    Now this is where it starts to get a little more convoluted because Československá zbrojovka Brno had been making the Vz.33 carbine, with the first new manufacture German version being the G.33/40 in 1940 using the “945” number code. Which is also seen on some Romanian contract bayonets that don’t have any Waffenamts at all. And the last Brno made bayonets as already mentioned having the “dot” (Brno) markings and 1943 dates. With the two Waffenamted full muzzle ring types I mentioned - one having the Double Circle/Z and the Eagle/607 Waffenamt of Bystrica. While the other has the Circle/Z and WaA63 Waffenamt of Brno. Best Regards, Fred
    Last edited by Frogprince; 09-12-2016 at 08:52 AM. Reason: typo correction

  5. #15

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    The frst produktionseries bears the CSZ stamp and the WaA marking insted of the czech accaptence.

    Maybe they used stock parts bevor the Waffenwerke Brünn produced new ones with Z in a circle and scabbards without maker mark.

    The export Version bears Z in circel and dopple circle on the bayonet and the scabbard, but the first export series had the S-Code "945" (no WaA in any case)
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  6. #16

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    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    The frst produktionseries bears the CSZ stamp and the WaA marking insted of the czech accaptence.

    Maybe they used stock parts bevor the Waffenwerke Brünn produced new ones with Z in a circle and scabbards without maker mark.

    The export Version bears Z in circel and dopple circle on the bayonet and the scabbard, but the first export series had the S-Code "945" (no WaA in any case)
    Purely as a technical matter, the Czech military acceptance stamp is an “E/Lion date” with the ČSZ also an identifier on most (but not all Czech export bayonets). Which for Brno usually also have the Circle/Z marking. (Not that it takes away at all from the point of it being a little earlier rather than later.)

    As for the bayonets themselves - with my apologies for using some fairly old images taken (most likely for some other purposes) at different times in poor mixed lighting: One photo showing the Circle/Z of Brno - with the WaA63 which quite possibly had already been in use at the Mauser factory in Oberndorf a/N Germany before that specific German Army weapons inspectorate was transferred to Czechoslovakia. The other showing the full muzzle ring/gray phosphate finish of the early Eagle/607 marked bayonets made at Bystrica. Best Regards, Fred
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  7. #17

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    Hello,

    the Z was not only the former proof of the ČSZ bayonet tangs... z was also one of the allotted Fertigungskennzeichen (Markings of Production) of the Waffenamt. So the Waffenwerke Brünn used them as a Hallmark. There is no conecction between z-Marking and bayonets only for export.

    After the ČSZ-Marking with WaA63 followed the Circle Z (Brünn) + WaA63 and then the dopple circle Z (Povázská Bystrica) with WaA 607 in the orignal Vz24 configuration (Muzzle ring, Handle in the withe, phosphated blade and tang). Then follows the new production with bayontes without muzzle Ring und blued... first with dopple circle Z (Povázská Bystrica) with WaA 607 and then with dopple circle Z + WaA A80. There exist differnet typs of the WaA marking. In 1942-43 there was used the "dot" Marking of Production (Brünn)...also with differnt typs of marking. Scabbards always stamped WaA63
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  8. #18

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    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    the Z was not only the former proof of the ČSZ bayonet tangs... z was also one of the allotted Fertigungskennzeichen (Markings of Production) of the Waffenamt. So the Waffenwerke Brünn used them as a Hallmark. There is no conecction between z-Marking and bayonets only for export.

    After the ČSZ-Marking with WaA63 followed the Circle Z (Brünn) + WaA63 and then the dopple circle Z (Povázská Bystrica) with WaA 607 in the orignal Vz24 configuration (Muzzle ring, Handle in the withe, phosphated blade and tang). Then follows the new production with bayontes without muzzle Ring und blued... first with dopple circle Z (Povázská Bystrica) with WaA 607 and then with dopple circle Z + WaA A80. There exist differnet typs of the WaA marking. In 1942-43 there was used the "dot" Marking of Production (Brünn)...also with differnt typs of marking. Scabbards always stamped WaA63
    Hello, I think that perhaps some of the point I was trying to make has been misunderstood. The “z" marking by itself that is in the Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen (published by the OKH), is there, but it’s blank having nothing written behind it. With the Circle/Z on the bayonet I posted not only on it, but also on early Czech Army bayonets (in another location) that also have the E/Lion date acceptance marking, as well as the ČSZ as do some prewar export models that also have the ČSZ marking (but not always for some of the export models).

    With the Circle/Z also seen on various and sundry parts of prewar Czech rifles/carbines - and the 945 coded G.33/40 carbines that may have been made using some prewar parts or as an internal factory marking. With the Germans at some point erasing parts of the ČSZ marking on bayonets, and changing the rifle side rail markings to ZBROJOVKA BRNO A.S. VZ.24. deleting Československá. But with the “945” marked bayonets (which were a puzzle for a while) they are seen on some of the bayonets from Romania that was used as a factory identifier that had nothing to do with the German Army, but as something made for Romania.

    And it’s not until 1942 that we see the now modified (dated and blued, no muzzle ring) bayonets with the “dot” markings and Waffenamts. My point here being that on the new manufacture Waffenamted Circle/Z full muzzle ring bayonets, the ČSZ was not used like other CZ production on the blades - because the Waffenamted bayonets have an unmarked ricasso on one side and use the Circle/Z on the other. With the WaA63 itself used in the Czech Vz.24 fashion on the tang between the wood grips. And the “dot” marking used in 1942 as a replacement for the Circle/Z, along with a more abbreviated Waffenamt moved to the opposite side (in the German fashion at the top of the pommel). As for the images that were posted I’m reasonably certain that the blued Eagle/607 marked bayonet from Bystrica is a rework that is not at all uncommon for what is a very scarce bayonet. (Having seen a number of other ex-Czech and German marked reworks just about all of them have had the muzzle ring removed when they were so equipped, so for many collectors still being intact is a major plus.) Best Regards, Fred
    Last edited by Frogprince; 09-15-2016 at 07:02 PM. Reason: minor clarifications

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