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Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

Article about: The owner of this cap has given me permission to post these photos and would be interested to hear your opinions gentlemen.

  1. #1
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    Default Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    The owner of this cap has given me permission to post these photos and would be interested to hear your opinions gentlemen.
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    A completely original cap, as you yourself know. If he thinks it is fake, I will buy it. This is a Wille cap of late make, as you can see. If some SS person put the newspaper in at that date, that is noteworthy. In any case, this poor chap has no reason to worry. This is one of the Wille caps without the stamp, which is not at all uncommon. One's interests are better served here than on the other website. One also notes that the Nazis were rather more candid about the reality of war than is presently the case.
    If someone thinks this cap is a fake, then, do let me be direct, they are total fools.
    damit, basta.

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    I concur that its an authentic example and the first I've personally seen I think with 1940 on the sweatband. HB is most probably the RZM code given to leather hat band manufacturers. 227 450 is the RZM number of the clothing store (kleiderhandel) from which it was supplied.

    As FB points out, if the newspaper was placed there in 45 by the owner, it's makes an already interesting hat that much more intriguing.

    It's a slight pity that it has some staining to the cloth surrounding the skull but that's a minor issue.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    The serial number at the bottom of the tag is the serial number of the hat itself as assigned by the RZM via the tag. This species of tag has no entry for the retail outlet and its RZM number. Earlier species of tag had such entries vice numbers.
    Attempts to clean the insignia are pretty normal and do not, prima fasciae, indicate fraud.
    The date on the sweatband and the initial of the leather good maker are frequently seen. "HB" made many sweat bands for more or less northern German cap makers, I think, as a rule. I have seen many Wille caps with the 1940 date, because the black uniform was in wear at said time and the Allgemeine SS was growing with Germany's conquests.

    We have interpreted RZM tags elsewhere at great length.

    I wish to register my disgust and disdain for the other site and the unneeded heartache caused to the owner of this cap for no reason whatsoever.
    damit, basta.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    The serial number at the bottom of the tag is the serial number of the hat itself as assigned by the RZM via the tag. This species of tag has no entry for the retail outlet and its RZM number.
    My mistake then. I was looking through the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM today and the numbers assigned to the kleiderhandel seemed to correspond exactly, i.e the 200 series numbers and the fact they hadn't yet got to 227 in the year 1935. pic attached.

    I find it strange that they numbered individual hats? how on earth would you regulate that in practice?
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  7. #6

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    Ben, you attached the retail firms for Deutsche Arbeits Front clothing, which was separately regulated. The numbers above a the license numbers for the firms themselves, of which you own one.
    DAF items are regulated separately from such firms as sold a wide variety of NSDAP and related wares. That is, these firms had a license to sell ONLY DAF clothing and nothing else.
    damit, basta.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    The earlier tags have entries for Vertriebstelle or Einzelhandel, i.e. the retail store or outlet or vendor. In the case of many SS caps of early make, say prior to 1936, the RZM was the vendor, i.e. the SS Beschaffungsamt in the RZM which became part of the VA SS.
    I do not want to do a tutorial for the fakers, you know. The species of tag enclosed with the Wille cap has no entry for a retail outlet; rather, it has the entry for the maker, and the serial number itself.
    I do not think that someone kept track of all the serial numbers of the caps, but there is a kind of logic and order to them if you examine them closely, and I have done so.
    The results of what I have learned, thereby, I do not want to share with fakers, but I will pm you, if you wish.
    None of us is obligated by anyone else to share knowledge here, especially when such knowledge plainly is being misused ever more. Also, since some of us hold ourselves to a higher standard than operates especially on the Italian American website, the outrage there especially acts as no compulsion to share more than we already have.Click image for larger version. 

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    damit, basta.

  9. #8

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    Saris dates these tags because old ones were phased out and new ones introduced in the Mitteilungsblatt d RZM. These are shown here in vague chronological order, more or less.
    In future, I am going to demand a lot of money for this kind of knowledge, granted the way things are going with all of this. There was a time when I was an idealist, but now I am skeptical and becoming a cynic.
    Happy foetid woolens, and if you are serious about this regalia as a thing in itself, then stay with this site, but be warned that if you import the Lord of the Flies "best practices," you won't post here anymore if I have anything to say about it.
    This threat does not apply to Ben, of course.
    damit, basta.

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    I realised it stated DAF retail outlets but just assumed the same RZM code would apply to the retail outfit regardless of whether it sold DAF, SA, SS garments or all of the above.
    That would make sense to me but actualy, nothing in these period publications make much sense when you can't read German!

    The mutzen band hersteller list was a nice discovery though. Although specific SS hat band makers are not mentioned.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Black SS NCO Schirmmutze by Heinrich Wille

    Quote by BenVK View Post
    I realised it stated DAF retail outlets but just assumed the same RZM code would apply to the retail outfit regardless of whether it sold DAF, SA, SS garments or all of the above.
    That would make sense to me but actualy, nothing in these period publications make much sense when you can't read German!

    The mutzen band hersteller list was a nice discovery though. Although specific SS hat band makers are not mentioned.

    I am sorry to write that your assumption is in error. The licenses are very specific. I do not have time now to append all the license categories. Mr. HPL@008 will surely play a role in all of this, as I know him.
    Not to beat a dead horse of mine, or ride my hobby horse, but without understanding German, a lot of this is going to result in a tower of Babel.
    In any case, your enthusiasm is infectious. I am an elitist, but I came by same through years of posting about this stuff with the echo of a huge yawn and a roaring silence, so I am a little jaded in said respect.
    The RZM thingies do not mention the SS very much, truth be told. You need to grind down to a yet deeper level of analysis and documentation as done by d'Alquen and Saris to get at that data, and it is pretty arcane.
    I have not done it, but have seen the results of their research.
    HB 38 does not indicate an RZM license, but the initial of the leather goods maker and the year of production. case.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 07-15-2011 at 03:32 AM.
    damit, basta.

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