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Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

Article about: I like the quizes, even though I cant understand half of it, the half I do understand is great learning meterial. Long may they continue and hopfully I will soon correctly answer one. At fir

  1. #11

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

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ID:	318459Also, there needs to a basis of positive facts and truths as the foundation whereupon the dissection of fakes unfolds. If the latter stands on its own, the beginner will just get more confused and that is not what any of us wants.

    The place to begin is to re do what Wilkins does as concerns how caps were made, more or less, as well as a description of the context in which they were made.

    We have accumulated the knowledge on this site, but it is disorganized. Someone with time and energy should undertake the project.

    In another context, I asked for a primer on "sculls," which no one has every offered, though one figure did so two websites ago. I did something with RZM tags for the SS, and thereby I began not with a freak's parade of fakes, but with the original examples. I am seized of the chronology of same, but I am sure I have made many errors with this subject.

    The check list exposes on the other site have merit, to be sure, but we can go far beyond what is accomplished there, and without all the collateral damage and dross.

    Remember: Clausewitz described critical thought, analytical thought of war thus: a.) chronology; b.) cause & effect; c.) judgment. The latter two thingies trip up many hereabouts, especially because of Herman Kahn's unknown unknowns.

    My heir asked me the other day how can I tell if a black SS officer's cap is real or not?

    That is a significant question, and the requirement to break this all down into comprehensible bits is an important didactic task.

    It does not do to respond to same with a dismissive answer. In fact, it is exceptionally hard to break down the analytical process for a lay person.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-11-2012 at 09:26 PM.
    damit, basta.

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  3. #12

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    The other piece, of course, is all these tailoring books were written by artisans for other artisans, who had an eight year apprenticeship. Eight years. This kind of thing is long gone, of course, as in the EU of today, such a thing is unaffordable other than for bo bo back to the handicrafts freaks in their number.
    In Vienna and Munich there are still hat maker Ateliers, where some of this skill exists, but for the uniform caps, I think not.
    In any case, the terms and expressions in the original works are to a large extent very hard to understand even in modern German. It is a specialized language that reflects the trade, artistry of the epoch. And, the things we admire were often the work of the women you see, especially in the image where the caps are finished with hand stitches to the interior, as well as the badges are being affixed.

    If one of these young women is still alive, we could simply ask her. Rather than making dumb, fake aluminum badges for Heini H's gala evenings of racism and genocide, one could look for one of these women
    damit, basta.

  4. #13

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz


    You are on the money with your insight as ever.

    One of the objectives with my up coming (hopefully) book is to give an overview and basic introduction of what each type of cap looks like, what to look for and consequently the reader can then draw conclusions as what to avoid. Sadly it does not go into the kind of detail you allude too. It does put each cap in its historical context and maps the regulation changes in size colours and insignia etc...

    That said I agree it would be a positive contribution to this forum to be able to put together, via a collective piece of work, a more definitive analysis of the "cap" and the valid points you raise. I would certainly be keen to get involved in such a project.



  5. #14

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    Quote by Friedrich-Berthold View Post
    The game playing and the sh!ts and giggles is for the other site.
    Quite honestly FB, my opinion is that your are totaly wrong on this particular subject.

    I think it's a valuable medium to help collectors learn the details of what makes a quite convincing fake actualy a fake. Far better to post quiz type questions that you have to study and think about before posting rather than just posting a picture of a hat and demanding or giving all the answers.

    Dear friend, you know that I truly appreciate all the words and images of authentic garments that you post. In terms of educating novice collectors though, I don't think it's working though. I read and enjoy every word of your posts now but I clearly remember when I first started collecting that it was information overload and frankly, I didn't understand a word you were saying back then...

    I'll gladly post detailed examinations of what makes an authentic hat authentic. I could talk for hours about every stitch and every fold. My impression though was that you disliked this approach because it not only educates collectors, it educates the fakers as well.
    Last edited by BenVK; 03-11-2012 at 10:44 PM.

  6. #15

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    Dear Ben, my comment was not really directed at you, actually. In any case, we can disagree about all of this, but I have begun actually to talk to some of the collectors here (face to face, i.e. not in these little snippets) and I am struck at their challenges of learning and also of their reactions to many of these posts, which they do not share in public because they are afraid of humiliation. As to educating the fakers, I am afraid that everything we do has this undesirable effect. However, my comment above was more as a result of the things on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum than on this site, and, in particular, of the atmosphere of an insider clique that reigns there which, actually, has a very caustic and destructive effect on the beginner in my experience.

    I do not mean to suggest a unitary means of learning, but the lack of linearity in much of this constantly trips up people without much experience, and my post derives from their comments to me outside of this medium. I do not want to, and cannot, impose a single approach. I do, however, have decades of experience with teaching history at an advanced level, which finds its way here. You can either accept this fact or reject it.

    Also, much of what is in the Muetzenmacher thread should be integrated into some of these inquiries.

    And, I hardly need add that my comment is not personal, because, I suggested originally a.) that this rubric be created and b.) that you, Ben, run it.
    damit, basta.

  7. #16

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

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ID:	318490This book is my model. It is superb.
    damit, basta.

  8. #17

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    I totaly understand your point about lack of linearity but the fact is that we are an internet forum and not a univerity dissertation.

    There has to be an element of fun and entertainment otherwise it all becomes too much hard work and a brain ache!

  9. #18

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    In Germany today there remains a kind of trade education or training culture derived from the tradition of the handicrafts which is quite powerful. That is, the didactic approach to explain how things are made, which reflects the broad and deep tradition of vocational training there with which I am also professionally familiar.
    Such does not exist at all in the U.S., or if it does, it surely does not make it to popular television in my experience. Now mind you, I had a long apprenticeship in something different, without scissors and fabric, but it was a very long apprenticeship with the aspect of a guild. I guess this experience, as well as much time spent in Germany, Austria and Slovakia in search of the past makes me alive to this particular aspect. Just as many young people have no direct experience of agriculture as it existed a century or more ago, the experience of artisans and early industrialization of clothing is incomprehensible other than in protest videos about how H and M or some other globalized retailer makes cheap clothing in the third world. These things motivate me to write as I do, but you are all free to ignore it.
    damit, basta.

  10. #19

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

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    Quote by BenVK View Post
    I totaly understand your point about lack of linearity but the fact is that we are an internet forum and not a univerity dissertation.

    There has to be an element of fun and entertainment otherwise it all becomes too much hard work and a brain ache!
    I surely do not want to deprive you of fun. Not at all. And where I am, there is the seminar, for which I cannot do otherwise.

    Happy hats. My contribution to entertainment comes via words and pictures.
    damit, basta.

  11. #20

    Default re: Heer General's Schirmmütze Quiz

    In the UK, the lack of actual skilled vocational training is almost non existent now. The news judges the nations success by declaring 500 new jobs by Tesco, McDonalds or some other service industry as if these companies are the saviour of our country!

    No wonder that young people have no aspirations when the only jobs available to them are serving burgers or stacking supermarket shelves.

    I'm really glad to hear of the investment in Germany in regards to actual industrial skills. Not one word of this is ever mentioned in the press in the UK but I have no doubt that it's the main reason why Germany is the strongest country in Europe.

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