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SS EM Visor for Review

Article about: Hats, and hats and hats.......

  1. #21

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Well first let ME say that I thankyou and Mr.Berthold for your incisive views on this topic, it is appreciated.

    I understand that people grow weary when their well meant and time consuming endevours are shat upon by faceless ne'er do well's on the internet. But I feel you have a little antipathy towards me for my previous post. I would like to say that I was not criticising any one person at all. I was merely trying to get across my point that the biggest losers in all of this will be the genuine collectors of the future.

    Certainly, it is anyone's perogative to think 'If in doubt, say now't'. Only time will tell with this choice of witholding the important points that cannot be learned by the impersonality of a book, no matter how good it may be.

    It will be interesting to note the content and information that will be posted in the German caps forum in the future if this is to be the general concensus of the experts here, and I am genuinely sorry for that.

    To finish, I personally have always enjoyed the information and musings of the hat guy's on here, and will miss their insightful knowledge if it is chosen to be withdrawn.

    Whatever, as you said there is no easy answer to this, but perhaps there is a middle road somewhere. I wish you well.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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  3. #22

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Dear Sir, I have no antipathy to you at all and do not wish to create same. You were witness to one of these jerks hectoring me in the last six months, when he would not accept that his object was dubious. This kind of thing is endless, and I am really sick and tired of it. In fact, I quit recently, which I am inclined to do again. But my comment was surely not directed at you, as you are judicious. I have busted my ass far, far more than others, and nary ever received thanks, quite often not even from the moderators (Adrian and Richie C excepted), whose job it has been to regulate things here. So this factor also operates in my response. I would say though, that five thousand five hundred posts and a "reputation power" of fifty nine hardly seems to me as if I have held back. And, if in the future, I am no longer here as an active person, then my work will endure, since everything is permanent in the internet it seems, as should not be.

    When I first began to believe that the fakers had ramped up their craft with the more recent black SS cap, I did tell collectors about it, actually, but I am not the only one who was conscious of the criminal state of things.

    The body of knowledge I have helped to craft here stands and falls on its own merits, but the other two sites that preceded this, as Adrian S. will tell you, were suffocated by the Katzenjammer kids and sophomoric crap that no sane person needs to tolerate.
    If in the process of same, the future collector suffers, then someone else can take the baton here and advance the state of knowledge on its "way ahead." Ben and I have reached a juncture, in which we are both totally fed up. Such is only human.

    As a final note, in my seminars, I include the statement that my students are responsible to treat the material and atmosphere of the class in the manner appropriate to the task, or they will receive a bad grade and be ejected from the class. Now, some of you will be horrified by this, but my teachers were from Oxford and the University of London, as well as the University of Berlin, and that is how I learned about the past. In the present, such a statement is odious in an age of leveling, anti establishment sentiment, and the general smashing of icons. But such is my point of departure. Adrian S. and Bob Coleman asked me to come here in 2008, but my own instinct has been to get out.

    People do not treat each other with respect, nor, especially do they treat the past with respect, even when they say they do with their fetish making of old clothes, old bullets, and banged up tin hats. They surely do not treat each other the way people who wore these things once did, and that's a bloody shame. So, I insist in my space on more order and discipline. The frequency of these episodes on this website and elsewhere, however, leads me to the conclusion that it is all too much trouble and bother for too little benefit.
    damit, basta.

  4. #23
    ?

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    I think it totally unfair and ungracious when someone is asked to "authenticate" an item from normally provided unsatisfactory details or photos, these people expect too much, and unfortunately this is the bain of most Knowlegable experts, their help is wanted, expected and in some cases demanded because of that knowledge, and then if something doesnt go to their satisfaction, behave like addled schoolchildren who havent been helped to cheat in an exam, of course there will be times when an opinion on an item is wrong, noone is infallible therefore anyone asking for help needs to accept that there may be times when it it doesnt work out, thats the risk that we all take as collectors, it is a travesty that when a person has dedicated his life and hard work to better his knowledge on any subject he is subjugated to ridicule and crititism by others who know very little or think they know it all, this site couldnt function without the undoubted knowledge of all those who have strived to collect original pieces and in the process of doing so have all been fooled at one time or another, knowledge is the key to all matters, i for one have embraced the advice given by all those here and i hope that in some small way i have contributed helpful advice as well on occassions, this particular thread will no doubt be resolved in full until people realise that these opinions are offered without any recompense, they are based purely on the collecting abilities and hard earned information gleaned from years of research and nonone should reproach themselves .The one thing that I hope happens is that when the time comes this knowledge be documented and be passed down to someone who will use it wisely and to better the hobby that has given us so much pleasure over the years, the books and archives that have survived all these years will no doubt become rare and in most cases unobtainable to most in the future, books can only give certain information, hands on experience will give the certain nuances of manufacture , style and what to look for in variations, this is the information that the fakers crave and should be denied to them at all costs, elitist it may be, but it is the only way to preserve history and not have it corrupted by the unscrupulous

  5. #24

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Thanks for the above intervention, dear colleague. One is between the devil and the deep blue sea, and it is a total bore. But thank you for the kind comment.
    damit, basta.

  6. #25

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Quote by davejb View Post
    I think it totally unfair and ungracious when someone is asked to "authenticate" an item from normally provided unsatisfactory details or photos, these people expect too much, and unfortunately this is the bain of most Knowlegable experts, their help is wanted, expected and in some cases demanded because of that knowledge, and then if something doesnt go to their satisfaction, behave like addled schoolchildren who havent been helped to cheat in an exam, of course there will be times when an opinion on an item is wrong, noone is infallible therefore anyone asking for help needs to accept that there may be times when it it doesnt work out, thats the risk that we all take as collectors, it is a travesty that when a person has dedicated his life and hard work to better his knowledge on any subject he is subjugated to ridicule and crititism by others who know very little or think they know it all, this site couldnt function without the undoubted knowledge of all those who have strived to collect original pieces and in the process of doing so have all been fooled at one time or another, knowledge is the key to all matters, i for one have embraced the advice given by all those here and i hope that in some small way i have contributed helpful advice as well on occassions, this particular thread will no doubt be resolved in full until people realise that these opinions are offered without any recompense, they are based purely on the collecting abilities and hard earned information gleaned from years of research and nonone should reproach themselves .The one thing that I hope happens is that when the time comes this knowledge be documented and be passed down to someone who will use it wisely and to better the hobby that has given us so much pleasure over the years, the books and archives that have survived all these years will no doubt become rare and in most cases unobtainable to most in the future, books can only give certain information, hands on experience will give the certain nuances of manufacture , style and what to look for in variations, this is the information that the fakers crave and should be denied to them at all costs, elitist it may be, but it is the only way to preserve history and not have it corrupted by the unscrupulous
    I agree. I usually qualify my opinion with something to the effect that an in-hand inspection is required, especially with SS, General and Diplo visors. One needs a tactile approach to authentication, and 2-D images are no replacement for the same.
    Last edited by stonemint; 07-09-2011 at 09:50 PM.
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

  7. #26
    ?

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Quote by big ned View Post
    as you said there is no easy answer to this, but perhaps there is a middle road somewhere. I wish you well.
    Thank you and your contribution is much appreciated.

    The intention was and still is to create that middle road right here. It was FB's idea that we should create this sub forum and a fine idea it was. Everyone can discuss hats in the smallest detail here if they so wish and can ask all the questions they want. As the moderator, I will always try to give my honest and open opinion to those questions.

    If authentication discussions don't interest you, then this area is not the place for you and can be avoided very easily. I personaly think it's worked quite well. Such a sub forum means that the main forum is no longer the domain of endless fake or real type questions that can be utterly relentless and tiresome.

    More participation on the main cloth headgear forum would be better though. There are only a few of us who consistently try and make that area an interesting place to visit. FB's efforts and generosity stand out quite clearly for all to see there.

    It's no wonder he is worn out!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #27
    ?

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Quote by stonemint View Post
    Interior shots of another A-SS fake:
    I think this may be of the same species as the subject cap but obviously, they didn't get the sweat leather correct for one thing.

  9. #28

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    I believe the means exist via computer scans of our images we provide thence to make a better template or matrix or whatever of the object in question. Such plainly has happened with the earlier iterations of the RZM/SS stamp on the visor, for instance.
    In any case, I have given you enough images of the real thing for ample reflection.
    As Mr. Stonemint points out, an assessment of any object without touch and smell is a dodgy thing at best.
    Thanks for the image of the animal at rest.
    In the course of time, I have accumulated hundreds of images of fake black SS caps, some of which I have posted, but that is not really my thing.
    My level of ambition has been the authentic objects, which for those who have never really seen one and handled same, to say nothing of living with them for decades, then whole thing is more dodgy yet still.Name:  00231180.jpg
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    damit, basta.

  10. #29

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    Without wanting to offer a check list here in this sordid issue, may I repeat something I wrote on the daggers site in the dawn of this odd experience. In fact, many of the later version of the black enlisted cap never got issued in the III. Reich. The utter proof of this is an advert I found in UM where the little buggers were still for sale well into 1942 (which proves that they were also worn...) and because they were not used in service, some survive in very good shape. Others were surely Kammerexemplare in the supply system of the SS. However, they also biodegrade in the fullness of more than seven decades, and these tell tale signs are visible in the badges, the peak, in the textiles, in the animal origin parts and on and on. I will not engage the black light thing, since I have never used this device in my collecting, and the Bender magazine demolished black lights some time ago. Sometimes the evidence of age is very slight, and sometimes it is overwhelming. Often such evidence requires a glass to see it clearly, but it is there. So, if something looks as if it were made yesterday, then it likely was. The requirement here, though, is to examine real things for long period of time in minute study. I am not enjoined now to make a visual tutorial of all I have hinted at here, and pfui on whoever suggests such here. Vital criterion are also touch and smell, which cannot be gainsaid. Further, a criterion is actually lining up several real caps and comparing them one by one by a glass. Also, the fact that the RZM issued Proben to makers of caps and others seems lost on people, who have no idea what such an object might be, and, instead , want some 21st century interoperable training aid that spells this all out on the mental level of such things as they exist in the experience of people who are beginning collectors. In fact, the first dimension of "textbook" (whatever this odd term means) were the Proben, which are illustrated in the Shea Beaver book, and the example is still for sale with Maederer. In the second instance, you people can now easily buy the Herstellungsvorschriften der RZM, and it seems easily had in Germany. I have bought two copies. It is a useful tool, though it contains nearly nothing on the SS. Postscriptum: to the best of my knowledge, the following are real. But, such a statement in our topsy turvy world leads to what is reality? In virtual reality, such is ingratitude, puffery, and sanctimony in full measure.

    sapere aude.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 07-10-2011 at 03:55 AM.
    damit, basta.

  11. #30

    Default Re: SS EM Visor for Review

    He probably gazes upon us from his hot and dark remove in the pit of hell, and thinks we are all total fools for being duped by his death cult kitsch.Name:  Tod_als_Wuerger.jpg
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    damit, basta.

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