SS Kratzchen

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I had thought that said object was outed as a fake. In 1933 such as it was, the runes were not yet in use in black peaked caps, this feature having been introduced later, I think.....with good reason.
Nor have I ever seen any piece of head wear with the VA stamp from this year, only later years.....
I rather think this is a peaked cap that got chopped somehow, actually, and I would expect the Kraetzchen to be more like those in the Rw of the era or the old armies. The VA stamp is also incorrect....

The piece is also worth more than five thousand dollars, were it real. Kraetzchen of the old armies were made differently, in turn, though some were rigid....

The Hayes black SS officer's cap for sale on the other site is an attractive piece, however, that must be said, despite very minor flaws.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

a field cap of the Rw (I believe...) with the normal traits of same.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

In former times, that is nearly forty years ago, Manion's was a sound source, but that is another story only meaningful to very old persons.
The "pre RZM" piece is also absurd. The RZM existed more or less in 1933 already. Derek C. suggests that these caps first appeared in the 1980s. In any case, I would not buy one, though an example was in the Hayes book.

Someone should post something original for us to enjoy.

PS These objects came from Manion's ca 1978. They were in the same auction, and I only acquired the tunic in the past decade, whereas the cap I got then....

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Pfui Teufel. I think the Hayes one was made from a real peaked cap, but who knows really. All too droll.

Derek C. owns a real black field cap with a peak, which is a thousand times more significant than all these fake junk heaps.

Fake, fake, fake and more fake makes me bored and then some.

[BenVK]

I wish I knew of an authentic example to show us all but alas, I've never seen one!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I wish I knew of an authentic example to show us all but alas, I've never seen one!

Nor have I, in fact, and I imagine that next to none survives. The number in use ca. 1933 into 1934 could not have been very great, and most were likely recycled.

On the other hand, it is a miracle that any black SS regalia of an early date survives at all, and I, at least, share what I have and endeavor to make sure that what I show is authentic.

[goodbuys]

Prehaps this bit of information will help.Kit Wilson's book SS HEADGEAR A COLLECTORS GUIDE which came out in 1990 has this information and the photo does not show the inside just the exterior.Prior to the summer of 1934 enlisted men of the Allgemeine SS wore a round peakless field cap.w/white cotton piping around the top and bottom of the cap band and across the circumference of the crown.The "KRATZEN" was strictly a drill cap to be worn in the field and not for wear with dress or walking-out tunic.Insignia worn was 1st pattern jawless skull and the short wing SA/SS style eagle in tin or aluminum.The caps interior consisted of the same waterproff.rust brown fabric found in other Allgemeine-SSrzm tags issue caps, along with tan or grey leather sweatband A white oilcloth SS-FIELDMUTZE or SS-TUCHMUTZE was sewn on the vinside of the sweatband along the seam of the cap.It was a popular practice to remove the wire stiffner and wash the cap in order to give it that salty appearence.Later on that summer the boat shaped O/S cap was introduced.Hope this is of some use to the other members.Carl

[BOB COLEMAN]

Carl-
The problem with the cap you are describing is that we have nothing but the author's word to accept this published example is genuine. The author also shows a certain ignorance of the subject by refering to this cap as "Allgemeine SS." Frankly, I tire of having to constantly repeat that the black uniform and head wear were worn by all branches of the SS, not just the Allgemeine SS. At times, I wonder if those who incorrectly identify black caps as "Allgemeine" miscontrue the word to mean black in German. These caps can be viewed being worn in Leni Riefenstahl's classic movie "Triumpf of the Will," which recorded Reichsparteitag 1934.
As FB stated, I also have never encountered a genuine example of this cap.

[goodbuys]

Bob,I know you said that in another thread on Black Hats.I am not as versed in this field and just look to others that do have knowledge on the subject as Kit WILSON.I just put what he stated as this is a subject that not many know about.I have never seen a original piece either so their must be someone to at least put in a book or article some facts!! Better to have some facts than none.Its a subject that will always have contraversy.CARL

[Friedrich-Berthold]

This thread is rather typical of what is wrong with these sites overall. The center of gravity is seriously skewed towards the fear and loathing of fakes, the fog of incomplete knowledge and an endless repeating of already tenuous facts. Derek C. has the documentary evidence of these things, either in the proto LAH context or in the other places these things were worn. The piece was in the Hayes book and is now for sale, a phenomenon that is also all too typical of this endeavor, and such processes cause more smoke than light.

In another thread on the insane website, in answer to a question from a collector, this person stated that these were fakes from the 1980s, which if they were made from real caps, is quite a shame.

A close reading of the RZM circulars is very enlightening on this item, but is a complex and time consuming undertaking.