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Südmark Kepi for Reivew/Comment

Article about: Looking for thoughts/comments on this one. No RZM tag:

  1. #11


    Anzel, the reason that people have an issue with your kepi is that it does not fit Clemens Wagner (RZM #4) production techniques of the era.

    The Suedmark kepi, if post Anschluss, should have an RZM tag at the very least. For the same reasons Wim has mentioned, it is not a "one -looker".

    In fact, it reminds me of this "officer" example:
    Attached Images Attached Images     

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  3. #12


    That one does look very similar to the one that just sold on estand. I will let my sleeping dog alone...

  4. #13
    DRK is offline


    IMO it's an early , pre- RZM example with a removable cloth "Gruppenstreifen" covering the ventilation grommets..... but it should have the smaller NSDAP cap eagle then...


  5. #14


    The shown kepi from post 1 is anyway conform the manufacturing regulation from 1934 and 1936,
    two seams along the edge of the visor (the outside look):
    Der Schirm wird nach dem Überziehen am Rande in einem Abstand von 1/2 und 3/4 cm
    mit zwei Steppnähten versehen.

    The manufacturing-regulation from 1938 is likewise.

    The positioned Edelweiss from post 11 is not the Austrian form for the SA, but is the 2nd.
    form for the Reichsarbeitsdienst (a traditions insigne). Due to the fact these flowers often
    are look-a-likes, this is possible. But not correct to the orders! The shown kepi from post 11
    in this form was to be worn with the tunic and not when a brown-shirt was worn. The silver
    button should have a pebbeled structure (it is not clear to see, but to me it looks as a
    smooth button)!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 07-01-2015 at 01:39 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  6. #15


    heyst56: “Added color band. Known practice in those days”. I would like to return this post/subject

    With some regularity I hear or read about the buzz- or fuzzword “known practice in those days”.
    In some ways this is not correct, even more quite misleading.
    It’s is an easy made “mistake” and is often used by those who are not aware of correct regulations from
    those days or by dealers to justify “lack of originality” with a specific item. As if one could do as one pleases!

    Since the summer of 1934 all was arranged by regulations. We all know however that occasionally the regulations were
    not followed that strict, but there were “golden rules”! Until mid-1933 enlisted caps did not have a colored band (just
    specific leaders or functions did have one). The various different colors (according the collar-patch system) were authorized
    since July 7, 1933, which was in fact due to a mayor re-organization, to make a better distinction. From now on all had to
    wear a colored top. For those with functions and such, a special system of indication was introduced to identify them. Such
    colored band (Gruppenstreifen or Randstreifen) could be sewn onto the body directly or used as a loose one (Mbl.RZM, nr.4
    from June 23, 1934
    This was a fact until spring 1934 (freigestellt ob eingearbeitet oder lose anzubringen). None of the shown caps
    here fall in this period.

    Later that year the most common procedure was that the colored band was sewn onto the body, while the top color and the
    color for the ventilation holes had to be in the same color (Mbl.RZM, nr. 28 from December 8, 1934müssen in der Farbe
    des Randstreifens gehalten und angebracht sein
    ). This was normally always done with the so-called “halbsteife” cap (the stiff
    cap from köper, the lighter material, which was khaki colored twill). For the “weiche” (soft formed) cap this was not so strict.
    This cap had to be made from the same material as the stiff cap (nicht etwa aus Tuch oder Trikot). It was allowed to sew the
    top, or add it as a loose band with this form of cap. But with caps made from Tuch or Tricot (the heavier structured materials)
    the top color should be sewn onto the body (muss fest verarbeitet sein).
    From this one learns that practically always the colored top officially was sewn directly onto the body. The shown
    headgear in this thread shows only the stiff cap.

    Sometimes on sees the ventilation holes are removed and another color top was positioned. This in fact only was allowed when
    the related person was transferred to another SA-group, having another group-color, or when one moved to another district.

    Many manufacturers did not produce so strictly as it should, but when done correctly the colored ventilation-holes were used.
    The RZM control-officials checked with regularity if caps were made according the samples. With many occasions the manufacturers
    lost their permission when standards were not met!

    So to speak about “known practice in those days” is somewhat an in-correct saying. It was merely done occasionally,
    due to circumstances.

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    Manufacturing SA-cap, according December 1934. The full description is not included!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 07-02-2015 at 07:54 AM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  7. #16


    Not all SA men were regulation fetishists
    Certainly not in a financial crisis time !

  8. #17


    I am not talking about the years 1926 through about 1931/1932, Hans.
    The shown caps are in no way from that period!

    It is obvious you do not have any idea about specific RZM procedures.
    I do show one from June 16, 1934 about samples (Mustermützen)
    and one from the controlling department (Betriebskontrollen) from
    June 23, 1934.
    I can continue with many of such notes and announcements about all kinds
    of aspects. The text is in German, I do not have time to translate it.

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    Why do you think so many headgear- and other party related products
    manufacturers did loose their RZM-permission(s) in the years 1935
    through 1937. Yes, these manufacturers were neither fetishists, but the
    controllers from the RZM were !!

    heyst56 just should check the A4 (cloth insignia manufacturers)-list, which I
    published in the "Handbook of the Hitler-Jugend". Maybe that list gives
    you an idea!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #18


    I'm not talking about manufacturers but about sa men who let their cap adjust according to the new regulations

  10. #19


    Knock, knock Hans!! For all you have an answer? It still goes about "a known practice".....

    For that (adjusting to the new regulations) there were also specific procedures how to handle.
    For example for caps: Lower classified units had to gather a number of caps and did send them
    through their command to a manufacturer, who took over the workmanship. Sewing on insignia
    was in many occasions taken over by women from the Deutsches Frauenwerk, who had their
    "hen parties". These women had to follow the orders to their best abilities. Or it was done by
    local taylor's.

    Before the early 1930's the women in the house did such work, but due to a messy view during
    parades and such, new rules came into being.

    How to wear a uniform was specified in the SA-Anzugsordnung, as well as in the SA-Dienstvorschrift.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Who did look after messy behaviour of uniforms? The leaders and commanders of units
    during a roll-call, as well as the SA-Feldjägerkorps or SA-Streifendienst. But.....
    we still see messy uniforms on photographs. Here I agree! They are not frequent, but
    just occasionally. Observe photos and remind the large numbers of SA-men!!

    I think this should be enough, but you surely will have the "final word", Hans.
    I will concentrate myself to other things as I have work to do for mr. Bender.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  11. #20


    known practice. Meant for me that it occurred on a small scale In the early 1930s By non RZM tailors

    Look at the cap from DRK (theo) with the Green band

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