H.M.S. Cap Tally questions

[R.R]

Hi,

I purchased recently this HMS cap tally and I'm not sure if it's a WWII era item. My doubts are based in the fact I observed a use of some kind of sinthetic material when I did a burn test at a ribbon black thread. Usually it's not a good sign for WWII era item for me, but may be I'm wrong in this case.






Another doubt I have is about the use of this kind of woven pattern at WWII era british tallies:



And my question is: There's a safe way to distinguish WWII era H.M.S. cap tallies from modern ones from pictures?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Ricardo

[Rakkasan187]

Ricardo,

I am not well versed on this but I will pass on to you what I have been told by other collectors:

You may want to hold the tally under a black light. Synthetic fibers will glow. Now there is a caveat to this method and some will say not 100% accurate. Some WW2 era patches for example glow under a black light due to the phosphorescent compounds found in laundry soaps and detergents of the WW2 era so when the patch is put under a black light it may glow so you will get a false indicator sometimes and some will rule that the patch is post WW2 era. I have also used a black light on ribbon material on restrikes of German medals such as the West Wall Medal Ribbon, Mothers Cross ribbon and Iron Cross Ribbons. The medals are in fact original but current synthetic ribbon was used in place of war time examples, thus fooling many collectors that they are purchasing a period example..

I am sure that others will be able to contribute more information for you to determine if this tally is WW2 era..

Smitty

Smitty

[R.R]

Ricardo,

I am not well versed on this but I will pass on to you what I have been told by other collectors:

You may want to hold the tally under a black light. Synthetic fibers will glow. Now there is a caveat to this method and some will say not 100% accurate. Some WW2 era patches for example glow under a black light due to the phosphorescent compounds found in laundry soaps and detergents of the WW2 era so when the patch is put under a black light it may glow so you will get a false indicator sometimes and some will rule that the patch is post WW2 era. I have also used a black light on ribbon material on restrikes of German medals such as the West Wall Medal Ribbon, Mothers Cross ribbon and Iron Cross Ribbons. The medals are in fact original but current synthetic ribbon was used in place of war time examples, thus fooling many collectors that they are purchasing a period example..

I am sure that others will be able to contribute more information for you to determine if this tally is WW2 era..

Smitty

Smitty

Hi Smitty,

I know very well the UV light test and seems to me it's purpose is not exactly to detect synthetic fibers on threads or clothes, the UV light test has much more the purpose to detect the use of optical cleaners over clothes and threads. Is just the phosphorescent components from optical cleaners that glows under UV light.

Optical cleaners was discovered before WWII but until the 50's or 60's its use was very restrict and rarely you will see it at an original WWII era item, except if it was washed after war with soaps or detergents moderns that usually has the optical cleaners.

If you dip half of a pure cotton twine piece into a modern detergent and after put it under UV light you will see the dipped half will glow and the other half no.

The better way I know to detect synthetic fibers on threads is the burn test. Modern threads usually uses polyester or others synthetic fibers from oil and its derivatives. Synthetic fibers when burned produces a hard mass similar to plastic when burned and natural fibers produced only ashes when burned.

But I followed your suggestion and put this tally with a original WWII Kriegsmarine tally under UV light and both don't glows in similar manner. Remembering, a thread from this tally produced a mass when burned and a similar thread from Kriegsmarine tally produced only ashes. Conclusion UV test don't detected the use of synthetic fibers on HMS tally.

Thank you and regards,

Ricardo