Waffen SS Officer's schirmutze

[j dubbel]

this skull is slightly different from the Austria-fake, i don't think you want to take it off to see the back?

dont take it of pins will brake
just try to see under the skull by lifting the top of the skull a little bit
this is a better way to see mark

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I think the Totenkopf is fake, too.

One often finds authentic SS caps with fake insignia. Whatever circumstances in the past, be it 1945 or 1948 or 1968 compelled someone to take the insignia from these things. As I wrote elsewhere, one well known cap insignia collector actually strips insignia from authentic caps in the here and now to nourish his collection---an act of exceptional vandalism and blindness.

If you wait to find an unworn, authentic grey SS cap which is perfect in every way, you will wait a long time and find yourself to be pitted in competition with others whose skill, resources and luck eclipse your own.

I subscribe to the opinions of others here whom I esteem, but with such a piece as this, you have to examine the thing closely with a glass for a long time to make a final judgment.

Electronic pictures often contain more mysteries than answers.

[stonemint]

I agree with F-B. Much insignia was stripped by the GI's, as it was easier to carry/send home than a visor. Secondly, many collectors did (and do) strip genuine insignia, because they don't collect headgear--they want to complete an insignia collection, with one by each maker. In fact, many of them are stripping the cloth insignia off fezzes for the same reason (yes, it is a travesty, and drives me nuts, too.)

Vol 2 of the old Johnson "War Booty" series shows a pic of a bunch of GI's in a Police station in Germany holding a bunch of hats, all w/o insignia. My opinion is that the GI's in the picture are the "second wave" of troops to arrive there, and that the front-line combat troops already went thru there, taking the insignia in lieu of the hats.

As for the hat in question, I like it. However, it is not a Pekuro--just a maker that used a similar stirndruckfrei system. The problem is getting original matching insignia--that can run up to $3,000 alone.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Dear Colleague, thanks for yours. I am glad you confirm my observation about this kind of historical vandalism of an especially odious sort done by people known to us all. May they suffer for their manic compulsion.

And, if my colleague gives the upcheck to this hat, with its eigenes Fabrikat of fore head free of pressure, then this is a very handsome and pleasing piece, the lacuna of a cap badge can be remedied with patience and a lot of money.

According to Mollo, these caps were released from the control of the RZM in 1941 and could be made by hatters in the same manner, I believe, as those of the armed services. Mollo makes this assertion in vol VI of the classical work on SS uniforms. Maybe our friend in Canada has a photo copy of the order.

Congratulations to the owner and don't worry about the stupid, fake TK badge with the mumps.

[BOB COLEMAN]

With regards to al fields in the collecting of 3rd Reich material, there is much to still be discovered and knowledge aquired. I say this with no disrespect but many of the newer collectors have a tendency to subscribe to the theory that all or nearly all is known..Items that do not conform are dismissed as fake that possibly are real. For many years, I have heard begining and advanced collectors make a proclomation on the authenticity of an item based solely on lore. The gurus of the internet are venerated as all knowing. After 54 years of collecting, I am still learning and adjusting my thoughts when necessary. My two cents for whatever it adds to this conversation. By the way, it is still a fine hat!

[vady]

bob is a very wise man. it only makes sense to keep an open mind and "adjust thoughts when necessary."

the trouble comes when ill-educated collectors get "burned" having spent way too much, then yell when colleagues (even those offering cautions while they do) turn thumbs down. a classic case of "cutting off messengers' heads."

so yeah, adjust thoughts in light of your and others' experience - but before spending lots of cash, get your OWN experience. you'll turn up plenty of interesting wartime variations along with "standards." but just as any would-be modern jazz pianist finds, ya' still have to learn the scales!

happy christmas, and a better '09 to all,

david

With regards to al fields in the collecting of 3rd Reich material, there is much to still be discovered and knowledge aquired. I say this with no disrespect but many of the newer collectors have a tendency to subscribe to the theory that all or nearly all is known..Items that do not conform are dismissed as fake that possibly are real. For many years, I have heard begining and advanced collectors make a proclomation on the authenticity of an item based solely on lore. The gurus of the internet are venerated as all knowing. After 54 years of collecting, I am still learning and adjusting my thoughts when necessary. My two cents for whatever it adds to this conversation. By the way, it is still a fine hat!

[Fenix82]

I have also the opinion that there are real skulls and eagles out there that are real ones, but because they're "unknown" to collectors they're labeled
as fakes, and that I think is a BIG mistake. I hope that some day an unknown authentic list of other makers and styles will appear to make better judgements.
I also think that they're people who are just "ashamed" to show their skulls or eagles that are not "compatible"the few originals we already know about. I think we have to start threads about ss skulls and ss eagles...

[BOB COLEMAN]

An interesting discussion. For those interested, visit Mark Bando's site on the 101st Airborne Division TRIGGER TIME - 101st Airborne WW2 http://www.101airborneww2.com/
Under the section entitled "Souvenirs," you will find at the bottom of the first page an interesting example of a period bevo totenkopf thought by many collectors to be a fake. Mark's site is an amazing historic study of the 101st Airborne Division. He has authored numerous books on the
101st and also 2nd Armored Division.

[Fenix82]

you're talking about this one?
intresting piece...

[Fenix82]

there's also a rare Belgium made flatwire skull, that looks odd, but is original!!!