Bergmütze - named/unit marked

[Neil Hever]

Sebastian, Thanks - it is a good one. I would like to know more about Bayerische MF so I posted it for comment. I will get some more photos and work on my macro lens adjustment as Manny suggested. Some of the really mint items I've posted have thrown people a bit. Better photos will no doubt be helpful. Cheers, Neil

[Canuck63]

Sebastian, Thanks - it is a good one. I would like to know more about Bayerische MF so I posted it for comment. I will get some more photos and work on my macro lens adjustment as Manny suggested. Some of the really mint items I've posted have thrown people a bit. Better photos will no doubt be helpful. Cheers, Neil

Hi Neil,
as soon as you have posted this thread I have compared your BM to mine and they are very,very similar,almost identical if it wasn't for a different,late t-shaped insigna and the fact that yours has vent grommets (adopted adter 1938) whereas mine lacks this feature.Many details are spot on-I think I've said that before-and since I've finally returned home and got hold of a bigger screen I've downloaded and somewhat "doctored" your pictures and all the main features we want to see on a "textbook"(hate this term) bergie are there.
The fact that this cap is mint hasn't thrown me the least,on the contrary I own many stone-mint items myself even if,truth be told,I much prefer items that have seen action.It was just a feeling not related to the state of the item.
I still don't like the markings and the name tag yet the more I look at those pictures the more I start to like this cap.Could you please try and post a picture of the grommets(outside and of the prongs securing it to the inner washer) and of the buttonholes?And a close up of the insigna?I must hand it to you...if this cap is a genuine specimen and if we had to buy this cap from a dealer from pictures alone and these included the markings and the tag I'd have passed on that and someone else would have probably got a deal!
Hope to see more pictures soon!
Cheers
Manny

[BenVK]

I don't want to get into a contest about how long people have been collecting or anything like that but IMO, this is a reproduction made to deceive. It's very well made but that's no guarantee of authenticity and neither is the story of where it came from. The M40 stamp on the lining of a Bergmutze is just incorrect. I've owned many original Bergmutzen and seen many more, none ever had an M40 stamp. It just doesn't make sense. Further more, all the stamps on this cap look bogus.
There aren't enough detailed photos of this cap to see the other mistakes but I would bet they are there.
If anyone is of the belief that that no one makes reproductions as close as this one, you need to seriously think again. Period wool, original nut or wood buttons and of course insignia are all possible to obtain even these days and the sewing skills of the fakers get better and better.

[Masonk]

I've been following this thread from conception and it's vey intriguing I'm looking forward to closure on this and hope this cap is authentic as it's in beautiful shape for potentially being over 60 years old.

I'm by no means an expert and my question/comment is going to be solely based on the circumstances surrounding the item.

If this were in fact a fake/repro (depending on your definition), then why would someone go to all the trouble of following every detail (even obtaining period materials/insignias) and then fall flat on something as well documented as the stampings? It was even said on this thread that a quick Google search returned the "correct" stampings.

That's my two cents worth. Obviously more photos could reveal the truth. Either way, it's good to have this documented on here as either a lesser know variant of an authentic piece or a high quality repro/fake.

[BenVK]

Valid questions. The problem we have is that the photos are vague.

I would never wish to condem any cap based on just photos but seeing as though that's all we have to judge, my opinion is that it's doubtful that this cap is original.

But, when you enter into the realm of "why would a faker slip up on even one detail" then you have already compromised your judgement because you just want to believe that the item is real. If you continue to follow that collecting path, you're more likely to "forgive" every fault and get yourself in trouble. It's a fine line because some of the best TR stuff are the non textbook items but you really need to trust your own opinion in those situations.

[Canuck63]

I don't want to get into a contest about how long people have been collecting or anything like that but IMO, this is a reproduction made to deceive. It's very well made but that's no guarantee of authenticity and neither is the story of where it came from. The M40 stamp on the lining of a Bergmutze is just incorrect. I've owned many original Bergmutzen and seen many more, none ever had an M40 stamp. It just doesn't make sense. Further more, all the stamps on this cap look bogus.
There aren't enough detailed photos of this cap to see the other mistakes but I would bet they are there.
If anyone is of the belief that that no one makes reproductions as close as this one, you need to seriously think again. Period wool, original nut or wood buttons and of course insignia are all possible to obtain even these days and the sewing skills of the fakers get better and better.

Hi Ben,
great to see you around matey !
You've hit the nail on the head with your great points!Thet's exactly what I've tried to say in one of my first posts in this thread.All the features we'd love to see in a real bergmutze are there but the markings are a red flag as big as the Statue of the Liberty IMO...if I had to purchase this cap on the basis of the pictures alone (especially the markings) I'd pass on it,but since a hands-on inspection is out of the question more detailed pictures would definitely be essential here.
This afternoon I'll get hold of my freshly repaired computer (now I'm working on an A5 sized laptop) and I hope the owner of this cap will post more detailed pictures soon.
I kinda like the way it's made but,I'm saying it again,chances of it being 1000% genuine are slim IMO....even if detailed pictures are a must in cases like this.We've asked the oner to post a few but until now he hasn't posted any
Cheers
Manny

[FtrPlt]

Gents,
I was curious about the stamps on this cap. I'm aware of both the Munich and Wien depot stamps. I thought I saw a Bergmütze over on WAF that was stamped as M41. I'm just trying to understand if your concerns are with the depot year vs issues with the cap itself.

[BenVK]

Hi and welcome. The M40 stencil on this one and the M41 on the WAF bergmutze is not, IMO, a depot stamp. It's obviously part of the makers stamp applied at the time of manufacture. I can only assume that it relates to the year.

Here's a sidecap from the same maker. Interesting that the "M" is not used here.

[FtrPlt]

Gents,
This is an interesting thread and I thank all for their comments.

Clearly Bergmützen exist which do indeed show the "M" in the stamped in labels. To a lessor extent, one can also see the Wien stamp, as well, although I've only personally seen this once in a Polizei feldkappe.

Other early (known original) Bergmützen do indeed carry the "M" stamp. An example:
Georg Teufel Sohn
Tuttlingen
55 M 39

I would agree that these stamps are almost assuredly added at the factory at the time of manufacture rather than being added later, literally at a depot.

My current theory that I am exploring is whether these caps were actually contracted out by the München or Wien depots? This could explain the presence of "M" stamps on bergmützen and their absence on general issue caps (sidecaps) by the same company within the same year. Bamüfa is accepted to have produced a range of caps and not just schirmmützen, as alluded to earlier.

Other Bergmützen I've seen all tend to have the basic company, cap size, and year all included in a single stamp -- e.g. as illustrated in my Georg Teufel example.

This photo shows what appears to be another Bamüfa Bergmütze which shares the basic stamp pattern as shown in Neil's cap. Different font for the size/M/year but the same maker stamp. Certainly some interesting discussion points with these.

(photo credit: FestungSpanien via the WAF site)

Lastly, there are indeed high-end repros coming out of the Czech Republic. The examples I've seen are all made using fabric taken from old uniforms. They do include the correct crown attachement seams, leather sweatbands, etc. However, they all appear as well-worn caps minus badging. Clearly these caps are intended to deceive. I've not yet seen an as-new example on offer.

[Neil Hever]

Well, interesting to see this thread continue so long. The Schnitzlbaumer family is relieved to know their Opa did not hand them a fake cap! : ) I have his Windjacke as well. I'll post that at a later date and cross my fingers that it isn't a "high end" fake. NH