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Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

Article about: last photo: instructor/advisor for an NPEA, as well as the Germanische Reichsschule.

  1. #1

    Default Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Hi

    One of the areas of "controversy" I am sure we have all come across in our time collecting is the thorny issue of a cap that is "non-standard" .



    Now a lot of people dismiss these as having been messed about with and/or collector upgrades especially when it comes to insignia.

    There will never be any real definite way of proving when insignia was added or changed but period photos always help. There are of course well documented ones such as sepp Dietrich wearing an army eagle on his cap but others do exsist that prove the exception to the rule.

    I came across these two portrait shots whilst researching and they are classic examples of never say never.

    Both are wartime pictures. The gebirgsjager has opted for a bullion wreath, technically only available for officers and the gefreiter has gone one better with both wreath and eagle.

    Please feel free to add pictures you may have showing the non standard, wild or just plain wacky!

    cheers

    tony
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  3. #2
    KSH
    KSH is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    There should be no controversy regarding these issues - the controversy was entirely created by ignorant collectors let loose on WAF and other silly sites. This period catalog speaks volumes on this issue - I have outlined the parts relevant to this "controversy":




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    Thank you for your truth-seeking initiative in this thread Tony - we need more such efforts!


    Regards,

    Kenneth S-H.
    Last edited by Larry C; 03-12-2013 at 01:20 AM.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Courtesy of Sammlermarkt-Nord.

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    Cheers, Pat
    Last edited by Patrick Lewis; 04-10-2012 at 03:49 PM.
    Best regards, Patrick
    ________________________

  5. #4
    ?

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Not the sharpest of photos, but another piece of headgear which many seem to doubt was ever used. The KM Officers M43 cap worn by a U-Boat officer with the grey leather deck jacket.

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  6. #5
    KSH
    KSH is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    I see that I did not translate the outlined areas in the Wilhelm Welhausen catalog above.


    For the benefit of those not able to read German:

    Basically what is evident in the catalog is that the bullion-wreaths for instance were not exclusive to officers - an enlisted man or an NCO could simply pay a bit more and get a bullion-wreath himself. The price of the cap would then increase from 8.30 RM (with all-metal stamped insignia) to 11.05 RM (with the "officer" bullion wreath).




    Likewise we see in the catalog that officers did not have to purchase any bullion insignia at all if they opted not to because of financial reasons for instance. An officer's cap with all-metal stamped insignia (like most EM/NCO caps) would cost 10.60 RM. If an officer wanted all-bullion insignia and a soft leather peak just to show off, he would have to pay 17.50 RM, he would then end up with a cap something like this (which is interestingly enough from the same maker as in the catalog):

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    When you see in the catalog that the bullion cap eagle cost 3 RM alone from Welhausen, it's not hard to understand why some people found such things too expensive, when money was needed for more important things than glittering cap eagles and such.


    Regards,

    Kenneth S-H.

  7. #6

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    I've always found this photo interesting.

    Hard to tell unless looking at the original bundesarchiv version but the SS man in the middle is wearing an M43 feldmütze with Heer trapezoid insignia.
    I've heard people say that wasn't allowed (Click on photo for full size)
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  8. #7

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Bullion EM/NCO caps are very rare for 2 reasons. The first is that not many EM/NCO's during the TR had the means to afford such insignia. Second is that many unscrupulous dealers/collectors removed the leather chinstrap and "upgraded" the visor to officer status (and hence a higher price).
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

  9. #8

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Traditions badges present the same problem. Schwedter adlers, Danziger skulls, Braunschweig totenkopfs and GJ eidelweisses are commonly available as loose insignia. Unfortunately, these same unscrupulous dealers/collectors added these insignias to increase their value. However, if factory-made at the time, the maker would have the eagle placed higher on the cap to accomodate the insignia. With post-1945 insignia, they try to "squeeze" the traditions badge in between the wreath and the eagle, and it ends up overlapping the band or eagle.

    Another common way they do it is to simply raise the eagle, which leaves 2 "puncture wounds" visible on the cap, which just drives me nuts.....
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

  10. #9

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    Bullion wreaths on Heer other ranks cap certainly did exist in the period. I had several in my first collection that was put togetherin the late 50's and 60's. it is not uncommon in period photographs to see SS shirmutze with Heer eagles.
    I have also seen Heer eagles worn as sleeve eagles on SS uniforms. Here is an example of a gray SS Erel officer schirmutze with bullion Heer form national emblem.
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    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  11. #10

    Default Re: Don't tell me they would'nt have worn it..........

    With the Waffen-SS, it is almost as common to see WH eagles in wear as SS (this one sported by Muhlenkamp):
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    NEC SOLI CEDIT

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