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Headgear question??

Article about: In the section "....." I have posted an interesting RZM plate with many figures, wearing political uniforms. One figure is quite interesting and a close-up from the figure is shown

  1. #1

    Default Headgear question??

    In the section "Non-combat uniforms and related insignia of the Third Reich" I have posted a very interesting RZM plate
    with many figures, wearing political uniforms with the thread RZM request: as SA, early NSKK, HJ, SS, political leaders etc.

    One figure is quite interesting and a close-up from the figure in a greyish uniform is shown. I am interested to know if someone is able
    to give an answer to this "puzzle"!!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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  3. #2

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    I vote for DLV, in fact.

    - - ------- - -

    and, if you, dear Wim, do not know the answer, with your leading expertise, how can the average person aspire to know?

    Useful sources:

    Karl-Heinz Völker: Die deutsche Luftwaffe 1933-1939. In: Beiträge zur Militär- und Kriegsgeschichte, hrsg. v. Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamt (Schriftenreihe des MGFA), 8. Band, Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, Stuttgart 1967, S. 20-21
    Karl-Heinz Völker: Dokumente und Dokumentarfotos zur Geschichte der deutschen Luftwaffe. In: Beiträge zur Militär- und Kriegsgeschichte, hrsg. v. Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamt (Schriftenreihe des MGFA), 9. Band, Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, Stuttgart 1968, S. 363
    damit, basta.

  4. #3

    Default

    FB: If you did read the posts with the thread RZM request, you would have known this is not DLV,
    as I mentioned:
    At another forum (WAF) it was suggested the last but one figure (lower row, second from right from the RZM-plate)
    would be DLV - Deutscher Luftsport-Verband, as they wore grey.
    This is very close, but not just! Does the guy wear DLV insignia with his visored cap, or the DLV collar-patches. No!
    This is the misconception. The person in the figure was a member for the DLV, but his uniform is not!

    In post 10 was said: DVS (Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule). This also close, even closer, but not just!

    FB: For 98% I do know what it is, but practically always the uniform is wrongly identified in references. For
    that reason my question. Even during the Third Reich-period this uniform was often not correctly classified. A hint.
    In a 1934 periodical it was sais as: Die Mitgliedschaft beim DLV allein gibt kein Recht der DL-Bekleidung.

    Here is the figure from the late 1934 RZM-plate where it is all about and a close-up from the most important part:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 12-25-2014 at 10:15 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  5. #4

    Default

    Thanks for the further data. I am not very informed about aviation things versus my own interest in black SS uniforms.
    damit, basta.

  6. #5

    Default

    After looking at the very good Bw sources I cited on the Lw from the 1960s, a distinction was made at the time between persons with military experience with two should boards and those without, with only one shoulder board, as with the SA uniform.

    - - ------- - -

    Thanks, Wim, for all your fine research and subtle knowledge you share with us.
    Such a test proves that there is always something to learn.
    damit, basta.

  7. #6

    Default

    I don't blame you at all FB! You have your special interest in SS.
    Me, I am interested in uniform-regulations of any kind, but most
    interested in the rarer things, subjects and organizations.

    To be honest I am waiting for an answer from the headgear-experts,
    but alas. None of them came with an answer. I already have once
    written about it, over twenty years ago. Maybe it was not explained
    as it should be. In fact the worn collar patches give the answer.

    I will come one of these days with an extended and in-depth
    explanation with images from 1934, but for the moment I have other
    things to do! The confusion and misunderstandings then must be
    solved. However I know that some will stick to the old and wrong
    knowledge!!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 12-26-2014 at 12:08 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  8. #7

    Default

    Thanks and we all profit greatly from your interest and energy as a scholar researcher and author.

    We look forward to your essay on this item.
    damit, basta.

  9. #8

    Default

    As promised an extended explanation what uniform is shown. Maybe it will solve various
    uniform questions and gives the correct indications for the uniform forms. I hoped that
    some WRF-members would come with an answer or eventually a "wide" guess, but it is
    obvious the one or the other was not intending to "fall flat on one's face"!

    Explanation (consult characteristics):
    March 25, 1933 the Deutscher Luftsport-Verband (DLV) was officially a fact and was raised from many of the existing air-organizations, like the Deutsche Luftfahrt-Verband (DLV). Others agreed to disband. In the course of September 1933 the SA and SS pilots-units ceased to exist. Its men were incorporated within the DLV, which was a nazi- (sub-) organization.

    November 4, 1933 the uniform(s) for the Deutsche Luftfahrt, officially titled: Bestimmungen über die Bekleidung der Deutschen Luftfahrt were sanctioned and issued by Hermann Göring, as the Reichsminister der Luftfahrt und Ehrenpräsidednt des DLV. The regulation was divided into: A) Motorflieger (motor-pilots. This section included persons from for example the Lufthansa, Reichsamt für Flugsicherung and DVS – Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule) and B) Segelflieger (gliding-pilots). The uniform for these last was introduced six days later on November 10, 1933. One should not that “all of these persons had to be member from the Deutscher Luftsport-Verband (literally: Die Bekleidung der Deutschen Luftfahrt wird nur an Einzelpersonen, die Mitglied des DLV sein müssen, verliehen. Die Mitgliedschaft beim DLV allein gibt kein Recht der DL-Bekleidung). And so it is obvious that not just anybody could wear the uniform. It’s wearing, with a related rank, was granted and stated individually with an order, known as Verleihungsverfügung, along with a permit (Ausweis), which stated the wearing. The new uniforms were also announced in numerous other periodicals as “Flugsport”, nr.25 from 1933 (page 537) and nr. 5 from 1934 (page 104). In some ways the confusion started with these articles while the uniforms were treated all alike!

    The uniforms for motor- and gliding pilots were protected by law (Reichsgesetzblatt March 21, 1933), as were also the SA, SS and Stahlhelm uniforms. It might be confusing, but another RZM announcement states the RZM had nothing to do with the DLV. It was literally said with a March 2, 1935 announcement: bei der RZM gehen noch immer Bestellungen auf Abzeichen und Bekleidungsstücke für Verbände ein , für welche die RZM nicht zuständig ist (Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei, nr. 2 from March 2, 1935). Page 73 mentions here for example: Flieger, Deutscher Luftsportverband. The use of the figure with the late 1934 RZM-plate, as announced in the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM, nr.29 from December 15 , 1934 (and shown in post 1 from my RZM-request) so has to do with the fact the uniforms were protected by law and not while the RZM was involved in other ways.

    Various characteristics were valid for the uniforms. The most important characteristics for the Deutsche Lufttfahrt motor-pilots from the November 4, 1933 regulation: a) with the visored cap the early pattern NSDAP eagle had to be worn, along with aluminum or golden cords and upon the band the national cockade within the oak-leaf wreath, flanked on both sides by four segmented wings (Fliegerschwingen); b) upon the left arm the eagle pattern was worn; c) the collar patches had a color according the earlier mention branch (most often blue) upon which a small metal wing (Doppelschwinge) for the lowest rank (Flieger) was positioned. The higher the rank the more small wings were worn, eventually along with a small braid or wreath-forms. For other branches the collar-patch colors were: white (Reichsminister and Staatssekretär), black (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) and yellow (Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule). The lighter-blue was used by members from the Lufthansa and Reichsamt für Flugsicherung, being DLV-members, as well as those from the DLV, allowed to wear the uniform). The colors bright red and light-brown were introduced in the course of April and May 1934; one shoulder-strap was worn upon left.

    Motor-pilots and related:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Most important characteristics for the Deutsche Luftfahrt glider-pilots, November 10, 1933: a) with the visored cap the early pattern NSDAP eagle had to be worn (the eagle was added in 1934), along with a black chin strap or aluminum cords and upon the band the DLV-symbol, consisting f a red round circle with vertical propeller and black swastika, flanked on both sides by three segmented wings; b) upon the left arm the eagle pattern was worn; c) the collar patches were blue upon which a large styled “S” (a curve) was positioned, interrupted by one, two or three bars (according to function). The bars from the “S” were referred as Wolke (cloud); d) no shoulder-strap was worn. In 1935 one was worn upon left.

    Gliding-pilots:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	782013 Name:  dlv.png
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    October 4, 1935 the regulation for motor-pilots was abolished (unter Aufhebung des Abschnitts A (Motorflieger) der Bestimmungen über die Bekleidung der Deutschen Luftfahrt from November 1933) and a new, official, regulation for members from the Deutscher Luftsport-Verband (Bestimmungen des Deutschen Luftsport-Verbandes: DLV-Sturm-Bekleidung) was announced by Hermann Göring as the Reichsminister der Luftfahrt und Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe. Section A for motor-pilots from the 1933 regulation was abolished. The uniform (the insignia and ranking system largely were the same as the one from 1933) no longer was granted, but worn by all registered members. The 1933 cap insignia for gliding pilots remained and was the official DLV headgear-symbol. A permit stated the wearing. Also this uniform was protected by law as were the uniforms for the SA, SS or the other political organizations from the NSDAP.

    The reason for the abolishing of the motor-pilots uniform is obvious: they all practically were absorbed within the German airforce (Luftwaffe), when the Deutsche Luftfahrt-veil was lifted.
    The guy shown with the December 1934 RZM-plate so in fact is a motor-pilot, wearing the uniform for the Deutsche Luftfahrt. The artist however did forget to draw the worn arm eagle, nor was he correct with the belt and double-claw as he should have drawn for this low rank a belt-buckle, the one we phrase as DLV, but in fact should be phrased as Deutsche Luftfahrt, specifically for motor-pilots and related functions. In the earliest stage DLV-members did not wear a buckle at all. This was arranged in 1935, but of course the one or the other may have used such buckle earlier!

    The question is: why is this pilot included with the RZM-plate and not a figure with the newly introduced Stahlhelm-uniform, wearing the NSDAP party armband, as specified in the July 1934 uniform-regulation: Die Bundestracht des N.S. Deutschen Frontkämpfer-Bundes (Stahlhelm). The nazi-armband was an official part for this veteran’s organization uniform. For the Deutsche Luftfahrt this was not, as officially an arm eagle (an early pattern) had to be worn!

    Maybe WRF-members can now identify what others (authors) did wrong with their so-callled "DLV-explanations". The given information is triple-checked and is accurate at least for 99% (as there might be a slight chance I have overlooked something).
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 12-27-2014 at 05:57 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #9

    Default

    Not a piece of headgear, or part of a uniform as such, but to keep with the theme of the early period, here is a vehicle pennant used by Hermann Göring
    as the Reich Air Travel Minister. (1933- 35).


    Bob
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #10

    Default

    Oh dear, too late for the quiz but here's a photo to add to your thread Wim.
    d'Alquen
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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