06-11-2010, 04:51 AM
F-B, found it through my usual strolls through the internet. I was going to buy the Bamberger cap, but it is undocumented for now (although the Bamberger connection almost made me overcome my reluctance.) The posters were originals, and were sold on an auction site specializing in such ephemera, and were not cheap.
The sign you posted drives the point home better than any words one can say....
06-11-2010 04:51 AM
06-11-2010, 05:02 AM
Thanks and a well done piece of research with the marvels of the age. I knew various persons like Bamberger and Hertz when I was a kid, in fact; that is, similar personages of middle class social station who were hounded out of Nuremberg, for instance. I grew up with this particular family from Nuremberg and Leipzig in fact, and of course, many others of the same and earlier generations of emigres who imparted in me much knowledge about Germany. The grand parents had lived through 1914-1918 and were more German than you could imagine, despite being non Aryans. In the 21st century all of this has changed into ancient history, but it has not been for myself, really.
I have not delved into my UM CD for a great while because of the press of events. I shall find some nice pictures for our readership, when my professional and personal life allows such.
Have you heard from Bob Coleman, in fact?
06-20-2010, 10:59 PM
An illustration of the Clemens Wagner factory in Braunschweig...it was probably torn down long ago.
06-21-2010, 01:07 AM
More significant than the image on the letter head is the contents of the letter, which reveals an interesting aspect of how the Wagner firm worked as well as the rationing of raw materials in 1941. That is, the use of a cap making cooperative as an additional source as well as problems in securing textiles.
This document is extraordinary for this reason.
How sad that a heap of this kind of correspondence from the firm itself does not endure, but this little snippet completely fits into the image of things with head wear as visible in the UM articles.
This enclosure is merely decorative. I try to add something with each post.
PS This document is also a nail in the coffin of the idea that each firm had a set method of manufacture, that only underwent some transformation in whatever collectors deem to be "late war." January nineteen forty one was not what I consider to be "late war." In fact, rationalization of production was a continuous process well before the war began and the capacity of the old line cap makers to meet said demand was hopelessly inadequate.
pi pa po
07-15-2010, 03:33 AM
This just popped up on the "LoF" site (as F-B calls it)--probably the most historically significant Rechnung I have ever seen--the invoice for a complete SS uniform set from the premier military tailors of the TR, Holters for SS General Reinhard.
Note the cost of one of their visors compared to Kleiderkasse models:
07-15-2010, 04:49 AM
We posted this earlier in the SS rubric whereby colleague Derek posted some nice further documents relative to costs. Holters was not outlandishly more expensive than the normal. One sees that the bespoke cap cost double what the Kleiderkasse variety cost.
All these little bits we busy beaver paste together to form some large fragment, however incomplete, of the past.....
Also, if I read this document properly, Reinhard provided the textiles, as well as the cuff title. Hence, the total cost was higher than the total listed here, or am I reading this wrong? The Kleiderkasse provided the textiles which were then tailored at the wearer's choice at an establishment licensed by the RZM.
07-31-2010, 07:18 PM
That's very intriguing if correct and something my poor brain has difficulty grasping. Why would a high ranking SS Officer need to supply his own raw materials, especialy to such a prestigious firm as Holters? Prehaps Reinhard could obtain certain bespoke materials of his own preference and by means that Holters could not?
This leads me to another puzzle that's had me scratching my head over the last few days. I was going to start a new thread but I think the question would fit here rather neatly.
On the other forum, a few Luftwaffe General's extramutzen have appeared recently. I did some research into what other General's caps have been shown in the past and nearly all were made by Lubstein and have the Verkaufsabteilung der Luftwaffe stencil on the celluloid shields. I counted at least 7 known examples without really looking that hard. But I did struggle to find any examples by other makers.
There can be no doubt that General's caps were sold through the L.V.A outlet, this price list of 1937 confirms that. Interested to note that one cost 23 RM!!
I still find this rather odd though especially after re-reading some of the information in this excellent thread. I think it's fair to say that Lubstein was not one of the most presitigous makers, the fact that people like SS General Reinhard went to Holters highlights that. Plus the snobbery of rank and statue is evident judging by the pages in the UM literature. If selling uniform items in the mess hall was frowned upon, what one one think of a General buying from the "subsidised" L.V.A outlet?
Prehaps I've got this backwards and a General would deem it proper and fit to set a good example to his subordinates by obtaining his uniforms from said outlet. Or prehaps if a cap was 23RM even from the kleiderkasse, maybe it was just too damn expensive for most to buy from anywhere else? Mind you, a leather coat was what? 100 RM so that kind of blows that theory away.
Last edited by BenVK; 07-31-2010 at 07:36 PM.
07-31-2010, 07:30 PM
What collectors think happened and what actually operated in the past are frequently two different things. Read the SS Kleiderkasse catalog carefully, and also read the bill for Holters carefully. Reinhard apparently furnished them the textiles, the latter were also sold by the Kleiderkasse, though in this case I have no idea whether Reinhard got them, there. Maybe he did and was trying to save money, which is a Prussian German trait much celebrated recently with the death of the Aldi founder.
The Kleiderkasse was the cheapo way to secure a uniform, whereas Holters was the expensive way. You live in Europe and know the tyranny of designer labels there, which is some maintenance of tradition of the crafts of tailoring in the world of the estates and the grande bourgeoisie. The Reinhard bill is a marvelous source. Plainly, Holters could not secure insignia that only came from RZM and or SS sources.
Senior officers in the III. Reich were very well paid, so I am not sure that these things represented the expense as posited by certain no. American collectors/authors with limited experience of life, society, culture and economy in Europe.
The past is full of surprises. You do yourself a favor to read the Uniformenmarkt in all its detail. The undertaking is worth weeks wasted reading half baked posts on most of these websites by people fixated on the legends and myths proffered by certain glamor dealers and sorcerers at the MAX and Show of shows militaria meets.
The material in this particular thread is to be found no where else in my ten years of authorship of such odd prose. Since you live in the UK, you should seek out the London equivalent of Holters, which I know exists, and ask them how their business functioned in the former times. The Kleiderkasse system in alive and well in the Bundeswehr, though it has been outsourced and privatized, but it is a credit cooperative to manage the clothing allowance of officers and preclude the falling into deep debt that was as much the norm in the past as it is in this wretched 21st century.
pi pa po
07-31-2010, 07:38 PM
Apropos the issue of clothing retail in military mess halls (Kasinos, also...) the matter was simple: the Ehrenkleid des Soldaten was regarded as that, as a sort of badge of exalted status in society, which was sullied with suffused in the odor of Sauerkraut and stained with mustard. The UM articles were directed towards tasteful and appropriate retail of military and NSDAP articles and clothing in a manner that upheld said status, rank, and snobbery. There was no lack of the latter in the III. Reich. Such endures today. Just look at the price list for the extras on a Porsche, BMW or Mercedes.
07-31-2010, 07:44 PM
Notice also Ben in your Verkaufsabteilung d. Lw that they offer the service of cap repair and upgrades for a nominal price. This little bit of knowledge flies in the face of those who imagine that such caps were made one way in the III. Reich and remain unchanged over 12 years.
There is no substitute for original sources. Lw caps were more expensive in their day than SS caps.
Thanks for the addendum. I think I had seen it, too.
No wonder that an organization created by Hermann Goering would be lavish in its appearance.