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Re: SS-KZ Schirmmütze

Article about: Here is one more that will certainly not be forgotten - a fellow moderator will undoubtedly recall it's presence, I'm sure. I often wonder whatever came of it . . . to my recollection, after

  1. #1

    Default Re: SS-KZ Schirmmütze

    Here is one more that will certainly not be forgotten - a fellow moderator will undoubtedly recall it's presence, I'm sure.

    I often wonder whatever came of it . . . to my recollection, after it left the center of the UK, it once landed in another [past?] province of the UK . . . and not long after that time, I was contacted with a proposal to purchase this cap. This is one that I never took the opportunity to pursue, and as well, one that I never forgot . . .
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  3. #2

    Default Re: SS-KZ Schirmmütze

    Yep Ben is always sad when he see that old friend...

  4. #3
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    Default Re: SS-KZ Schirmmütze

    Personally, I always wondered if that KZ cap was re-piped. I find the piping on either side of the band a bit too thick, and the middle row of piping appears uneven...

  5. #4
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    Default Re: SS-KZ Schirmmütze

    After it left me, it went to Australia. Lost track of it after that.
    As you can imagine, I examined the piping in detail and could find no evidence of re-colouring or replacement.

  6. #5

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    Quote by Arran View Post
    Personally, I always wondered if that KZ cap was re-piped. I find the piping on either side of the band a bit too thick, and the middle row of piping appears uneven...
    The words of surely my go to person when it comes to the most arcane and refined SS caps, bar none.
    damit, basta.

  7. #6
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    I think my "bud" , John Brandon, served well to sum this one up already -

    "We all have our opinions and everyone is entitled to say what they feel - And if you have one - and are happy - what does it matter - but to substantiate a rare coloured visor cap with one thread and half a dozen replies doesn't hold water IMHO"

    It would be futile to take the discussion any further . . . as he say's - onwards and upwards.

  8. #7

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    The issue here is evidence that supports generalizations. In the case of Waffenfarbe SS caps, the evidence is usually conflicted and the claims of expertise often on
    very shaky ground. I collect black SS caps, and I illustrate my comments with examples and documents and a lot of them. This custom is adhered to be few, and nearly none. Ergo, the question obtains as to the authority of claims with thin or no evidence. I repeat: if I have a question, I go to Arran and he is one of few I trust, and
    in contrast to many on line savants with airy views and either contradictory evidence and so forth.

    This website cleaves towards the use of evidence and sources from many sound researchers and persons who have devoted not years but decades to the search.
    Hence, while some of you may declaim as much as you like, in the cold light of the dawn, some declamations carry more weight than others.

    And, to end on a sour note, there are those who declaim who are invulnerable to evidence. They cannot understand the search for sources, they cannot fathom
    the assembly of evidence with their contradictions and so forth. They impose a disorder on the record of the past and call it order with a check list and a simple,
    easily memorized, count of five fingers criteria and feel very pleased with themselves. They have no idea what they are doing. Click image for larger version. 

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    Wolfgang of Salzburg recently wrote a little essay on cap making based on: a.) his own great skill as a cap maker and b.) on reading the primary sources where cap makers
    propagated their craft to others in the epoch, i.e. 1941 or so as the war took hold. The latter is an exercise that few in the English speaking world can do, because they cannot read German and they cannot understand
    the German used at the time, i.e. a very archaic and technical language of tailoring. His essay, which I recommend, essentially annihilates a decade and a half of posts
    about peaked caps, with check lists and "under the hood shots," and so forth with a throw weight that brings joy to my heart.

    This inquiry is difficult and those who try to simplify it do themselves and others no service.

    Happy hats.
    damit, basta.

  9. #8
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    That all being said . . . do you side with generalization made by Bob Coleman, that a cap with the farbe for KZ was likely never produced?

    QUOTE: As to the existence of any genuine brown piped visors, I would have serious doubts to any being period original as the KZ men did not wear brown until after the short six month period when branch piped visor were allowed.

    I've always been of the opinion that both written and photographic evidence argued against such thought.
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  10. #9

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    There is ample photo evidence of Waffen SS persons wearing caps with Waffenfarbe. That is scarcely an issue.

    I will not speculate on the color of the piping on your person's cap, unless you can show me exactly when and how and where the photo was made.

    Is this a person or persons in the Totenkopf division in a combat arms role or is he in a guard unit?

    These are images from the Bundesarchiv. And said persons appear to be in the rear area, i.e. not in a combat zone etc.

    I am especially familiar with the many photos made at Mauthhausen ca. 1941, for instance, where maybe the evidence is there or maybe not...I cannot really tell 100%Click image for larger version. 

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    There may be other color pictures and on and on.

    My point is simple: I have great faith in Bob's judgment, and also in Arran's. I have less faith in others who shall remain unnamed.

    And the unnamed as a rule do not use evidence, and this is a simple fact.
    damit, basta.

  11. #10

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    or, are you asserting that this cap in the here and now and the cap on this man's head are the same object?Click image for larger version. 

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    damit, basta.

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