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"Textbook", Regulations, and "Non-textbook": A Discussion

Article about: This thread makes me think of all the non-regulation items , that have been passed over as reproductions . Cheers Chris

  1. #41

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    Well said. This "hobby" (I consider it a passion) really calls for a multi-pronged approach:

    1. The primary source material (ie, RZM regs; U-M; the tailoring trade magazines; periodicals, etc)
    2. Reading the secondary source material (ie, Wim's books);
    3. Reading as many threads as one can on this forum (and to a lesser extent, others);
    4. Studying period photos of headgear in wear;
    5. Handling original specimens;
    6. Studying the fakes.


    Unfortunately, #1 is the hardest for most English-speaking collectors, along with the difficulty in acquiring complete source material
    (but then again, that is why we rely on Wim, HPL, F-B, and d'alquen!)--you will not find contributions such as these on any other forum but here.

    I have said it many times, but I will say it again: thank-you to all of you for your enormous contributions to the hobby--we are light-years ahead of where we were just 10 years ago....
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

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  3. #42

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    In some ways I do agree, but for me:
    1) the primary source always is the official uniform- and dress regulation (Dienstvorschrift, Bekleidungsvorschrift and Anzugsordnung)
    for any kind of TR-organization, as there it is stated how it actually and officially should be in it's original language;
    2) a double-check with a secondary source as UM, SuS, DUZ, the RZM and tailoring magazines while regulations can contradict so now and then;
    3) studying photographs and find - when possible - uniforms and insignia not worn as according to orders.
    4) handle material from friends with big collections, as myself I do not collect for about 30 years now. There is always in my mind a chance an item is an
    old fake, as fakes are being made since the 1960's and even earlier. There even do exist fakes that by many are told they are original, as they do not know
    better!

    I hardly ever use books, written after the war as a source, as in there are too many wrong given informations. Occasionally I have my mistakes also, while in-correct
    information was given by collectors, authors or so-called "experts", based upon their knowledge (often again based upon the lack of the German knowledge). Or
    simply by gaps, caused by the lack of finding the needed information.

    As Stonemint says: it is a passion. I study regulations since the earliest 1970's (so 45 years) and was lucky I was helped by some persons, I consider to be my mentors
    (all being Germans). Their knowledge is extremely and far more deepened out as mine. They are the real aces, but they do not write books or articles. A pity!!

    Passion is still there, but spirit is fading (for the last years), occasionally due to "obstruction", caused by jealousy and by persons who finally showed their true face! By this
    I am getting tired. I am getting too old for this sh*t!! Hopefully I can do some more books in the series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany". I am not intending to start
    new researches for other subjects. Neither do I plan to write articles about obscure organizations, or as how I did call them "the oddity"! Or?.............one never knows. My
    latest, coming article for the "Military Advisor" will be about the ZO (Zentralhandelsgesellschaft Ost). I think it will be interesting!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 03-21-2015 at 09:52 AM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  4. #43

    Default

    This is a good thread that should be viewed again.
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

  5. #44

    Default

    All hail Wim and his hard work. The term "textbook" operates at the expense of the truth and condemns the collector to much disappointment and confusion.
    The truth here is very simple and bears repeating. This all is rather complicated. If you dumb it down and reduce it to a grade school level, you will
    get a pretty lousy result. We are confronted constantly with people who cannot learn very well and who then become very aggressive towards those of
    us who take the task on ourselves. The digital thing opens up vast new perspective but it also facilitates a dogmatism that is just silly.
    We on this site work hard to keep open all the perspectives and all the rich possibilities in the past.
    damit, basta.

  6. #45

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    In some ways I do agree, but for me:
    1) the primary source always is the official uniform- and dress regulation (Dienstvorschrift, Bekleidungsvorschrift and Anzugsordnung)
    for any kind of TR-organization, as there it is stated how it actually and officially should be in it's original language;
    2) a double-check with a secondary source as UM, SuS, DUZ, the RZM and tailoring magazines while regulations can contradict so now and then;
    3) studying photographs and find - when possible - uniforms and insignia not worn as according to orders.
    4) handle material from friends with big collections, as myself I do not collect for about 30 years now. There is always in my mind a chance an item is an
    old fake, as fakes are being made since the 1960's and even earlier. There even do exist fakes that by many are told they are original, as they do not know
    better!

    I hardly ever use books, written after the war as a source, as in there are too many wrong given informations. Occasionally I have my mistakes also, while in-correct
    information was given by collectors, authors or so-called "experts", based upon their knowledge (often again based upon the lack of the German knowledge). Or
    simply by gaps, caused by the lack of finding the needed information.

    As Stonemint says: it is a passion. I study regulations since the earliest 1970's (so 45 years) and was lucky I was helped by some persons, I consider to be my mentors
    (all being Germans). Their knowledge is extremely and far more deepened out as mine. They are the real aces, but they do not write books or articles. A pity!!

    Passion is still there, but spirit is fading (for the last years), occasionally due to "obstruction", caused by jealousy and by persons who finally showed their true face! By this
    I am getting tired. I am getting too old for this sh*t!! Hopefully I can do some more books in the series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany". I am not intending to start
    new researches for other subjects. Neither do I plan to write articles about obscure organizations, or as how I did call them "the oddity"! Or?.............one never knows. My
    latest, coming article for the "Military Advisor" will be about the ZO (Zentralhandelsgesellschaft Ost). I think it will be interesting!
    Thank you, Wim, for your decades of hard work and your generosity here. We all appreciate it. You make grazing here into a real treat.
    Thanks to all the others for their fine citizenship and devotion to subtle truths that often challenge the below average mind and result in digital aggression.
    Wim's books are a pleasure, since one can take them in hand again and again and imbibe his passion for the subject. That is high praise for an author,
    since certain books care barely be read a single time and then they are rightly confined to the heap. Wim's books are lively and the small details
    whirl off the page with his energy and intelligence.
    damit, basta.

  7. #46

    Cool

    Just felt I had to comment, albeit a bit off topic - I've sort of been collecting for 40-ish years, but only really seriously the past 6 or so years. I joined a few fora, but stumbled across this one, where WRF felt like a breath of fresh air, where the knowledge is given freely, most of the time with no thanks, which is, unfortunately, a trend of modern times, without bickering and insult. It is the likes of Wim, FB, Mr. Stonemint, Ade et al and numerous others who I haven't intentionally missed out, but deserve our thanks for their years of studying and learning for the benefit of us all, unsung heroes of this collecting minefield, who are willing to give their time and experience for the benefit of us all.

    To them many thanks, our hobby would be a worse place without them.

    Now where's the tissues....
    "Per Ardua"

  8. #47

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Passion is still there, but spirit is fading (for the last years), occasionally due to "obstruction", caused by jealousy and by persons who
    finally showed their true face! By this I am getting tired. I am getting too old for this sh*t!! Hopefully I can do some more books in the series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany".
    I am not intending to start new researches for other subjects. Neither do I plan to write articles about obscure organizations, or as how I did call them "the oddity"! Or?.......
    As my quote. In the last year "true faces" turned up and so I left WAF. I know regulations were not always followed and this is proven
    with photographs. We all see and we all know this! But some think they still can deny actual and official regulations (as they were made
    for German idiots, isn't?), act as if they know the regulations (but actually have no idea at all or have ever seen them) and above all they
    rather believe their own "rough calculations and ideas"!

    Name:  naamloos doekjes.png
Views: 51
Size:  55.9 KB

    Wheep...... my friends, as in twenty or more years the nonsense about many subjects predominates and knowledge has gone and got lost,
    due to the behaviour of those so-called "experts", wiseacres and "snotty" noses, just brought to the surface of collecting!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 12-13-2016 at 12:56 PM.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  9. #48

    Default

    Well, I think any serious historian knows how many non-standard variant items were produced in the TR despite the thousands of pounds of paper it took to hold the directives and regulations pertaining thereto. I'm not speaking just of uniforms but in all manner of production, especially later in the war, "standardization" was a less and less achievable pipe dream.
    And I'm pretty sure that when you factor in the rushed training many people got either in the Wehrmacht or civil organizations, a more or less variable standard of uniformity in dress was inevitable. Insignia worn incorrectly or in a manner not in in keeping with regulation, mixed items of uniform not intended to be worn together, different color and fabric combinations...who cares when the T34's are coming on, or the B-17s and Lancasters are bombing the crap out of the city?
    And lets not forget the desire of every soldier since probably cavemen started working together against other cavemen to stand out a bit from the crowd, the combat soldier from the rear area "garritroopers", the fighting sailors from the base sailors. These also account for the variations seen in period photos. This is a natural and normal thing to see, from the middle ages to today. "Yeah, we all wear the same uniform, but those of us who fought in the XYZ battle keep our caps as far to the left of our heads as possible" "Everybody who served in this unit before XYZ gets an extra cuff title that says we are more badass than you" "ALL members of this crew who have done a war patrol get a little metal sawfish to sew on the side of their caps".
    Such things are jealously guarded by those "entitled" to them, whether allowed by regulation or not.
    In TR collecting there are a lot of known fakes, but just because something doesn't meet the written directions of "IT MUST BE SO" does not mean it is. But it is just as wrong to simply accept a variant (especially a serious, major difference in material or construction technique) at face value. Each piece must be judged on it's own, especially those which deviate from a known, documented type. I've got serious respect for those who have put together the information we have today; a great deal of work and study and a huge amount of money has gone into learning what Mssrs Saris, Berthold and others share with us here and in books. I would urge others to heed what they have to say with great care

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