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"Textbook", Regulations, and "Non-textbook": A Discussion

Article about: This thread makes me think of all the non-regulation items , that have been passed over as reproductions . Cheers Chris

  1. #1
    CBH
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    Default "Textbook", Regulations, and "Non-textbook": A Discussion

    This thread makes me think of all the non-regulation items , that have been passed over as reproductions .
    Cheers Chris

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    Quote by CBH View Post
    This thread makes me think of all the non-regulation items , that have been passed over as reproductions .
    Cheers Chris
    and rightly so. This fact is why I detest the word: 'textbook' in collector dogma.

    SS persons had black and grey caps with non standard chin straps. There are hundreds of images.

    SS persons also wore army caps with the green band. v. Lukacs has one for sale.
    damit, basta.

  4. #3

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    To me, the very title of this excellent thread says it all!! No, say the "experts", they would never mix uniform or insignia or wear collar patches on the wrong sides etc!!! But, yes they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless of course, all the photographic evidence in this thread is wrong?????? This thread is a brilliant show case proving comprehensively just how inconsistent German uniformity could be. And from my personal experience over 30 years in the UK Military, it still happens!!

    Cheers MR

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    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    To me, the very title of this excellent thread says it all!! No, say the "experts", they would never mix uniform or insignia or wear collar patches on the wrong sides etc!!! But, yes they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless of course, all the photographic evidence in this thread is wrong?????? This thread is a brilliant show case proving comprehensively just how inconsistent German uniformity could be. And from my personal experience over 30 years in the UK Military, it still happens!!

    Cheers MR

    Well said. Those of us with significant military experience know the truth of this thread and what Mr. Ryan has written.

    On the other hand, there are some, in their lack of experience or incapacity to understand the contradictions of the past, who beat us senseless with a set of dorky rules of their own authorship under the heading of "textbook,"
    which says more about their own intelligence as well as character than it does about the life of the soldier or anyone who wears a uniform in a hierarchical organization.

    I salute the British Army. I salute all armies, navies, air forces, marine corps, and whomever whose native wit and character enables them to outfox the berserk adherents of the "textbook" for the survival and well being of those in their command and care.

    look here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOM5VEmjgNc
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-17-2015 at 05:17 AM.
    damit, basta.

  6. #5
    DRK
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    Very , very interesting thread !
    Yes , there were regulations , the so-called "textbook" ( Uniformenmarkt , RZM etc. etc. ) , and yes : there were also many non-textbook examples of uniforms and headgear shown in this very educational thread....

    BUT...... let's be carefull , there will be collectors / dealers who can and will create their own "history" by mixing and swapping insignias from visorcaps using a thread like this as an "excuse" to say : "hey , this was common practice in WW2" .

    Just an advise when you buy a "non-textbook" piece of headgear : PAY EXTRA ATTENTION TO IT !!!!

    Theo

  7. #6

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    An excellent thread, but I fully agree with Theo.
    It appears as one would say here that most offended against rules and orders. NO WAY!
    The various dress-regulations, as in most occasions the Anzugsordnung for a specific
    branch or organization, were largely obeyed.

    If there were 1.200.000 SA-men in 1938 and only 1% did offend the rules, just 12.000 did;
    Or 8.700.000 HJ-members in 1939, this would give 87.000. Not even that 1% may have
    offended the rules
    , as with many occasions action was taken by their specific commander,
    leader or Streifendienst. It would be better to speak perhaps of 0,01%-0.05%.

    Just my opinion, but it is always great to find photographs where one is offending all or some
    regulation(s)!! Sometimes one did not even know, one offended against rules. See for example
    my cover for "Aiguillettes of the Third Reich". The worn aiguillette is a total mess!

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    Yes, uniform-parts were occasionally mixed or unauthorized insignia used..........
    It happens in all armies of the world. I did it myself when being in the Dutch army!

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    No tie, wrong shoes!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  8. #7
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    I wonder how big % of the cossacks that didnt followed the rules

    50 % ?!
    Collect ROA, Cossack, Schuma and other WW2 Volunteer militaria.

    "Be Humble and kind, for you may find that it was Odin you entertained"

  9. #8

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    TrondK: Do you know all the regulations for the Cossacks?
    Also the domestic concerns (Interne Angelegenheiten)!
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

  10. #9

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    Thanks. I am not talking here about such things as the RZM and the Uniformenmarkt, or the official Anzugsordnung. That is, I am certainly aware of the regulations of the time.
    By "text book" I mean the ex post facto misinterpretation by a much younger and non German cohort of collectors or accumulators
    who make assumptions based on incomplete evidence and just complete ignorance. I use the term with irony and skepticism.
    And these are people who do not read German; cannot read what is in the RZM circulars, nor in the UM, nor do they read Wim's books other than to look
    at the pictures.

    Further, at the risk of offending you, often times non regulation practice was not only tolerated for a period, but then, later incorporated into regulations so as to square the rules
    with what actually happens.

    There are whole tracts in UM on Uniformkunde that discuss these phenomena.


    Thanks. I have forty years of continuous military experience in my native country and throughout Europe, especially central Europe.
    I have also been a professional archivist and historian during this period.
    Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 03-17-2015 at 03:42 PM.
    damit, basta.

  11. #10
    DRK
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    What I mean to say is that some collectors / dealers refer to pictures like the ones shown in this thread to justify a "creation" they made themselves to make some profit or to let themselves or you beleving that the cap they have in hands is just o.k the way it is.......

    There's also the lack of knowledge..... "just put an eagle on that cap and go sell it" ( not knowing or simply not interested which eagle is the correct type.... )

    Here are a few examples after looking on dealers' site for less than 5 minutes ( I'm not mention the dealers' name because it's NOT my intention to say who's the good guy and who's the bad guy.. )
    I can search for another hour and I will find much more "non-text-book" headgear offered for sale on dealers sites.......

    Again , I know that there were "exceptions to the rules" but I 'm pretty sure that most of these "exceptions" you'll find at the internet today are done post-war because of the lack of knowledge and to make a cap "look nicer" ( make a profit of it when selling.. ).

    Theo

    First is a visor offered for being Forestry...... this visor has NOTHING to do with forestry , the colors 'the insignia , it's NOT forestry....

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    Second is a visor offered for being Electric Streetcar ("Straßenbahn") , the visor is a post-war Reichsbahn visor with a ( fake ) Streetcar insignia....the seller was informed about that more than a year ago and the visor is still for sale

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    Third is a Reichpost visor with officer cords : Wartime regulations say NOTHING about officer cords being worn on these visors

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    Next is a "Fliegerhorstfeuerwehr" ( German Airbase firefighters ) visor....
    These visors look almost the same as the "standard" Feuerwehr visors , with the exception that the black centerband is made of CLOTH instead of the black velvet.....
    The black band in the picture below is black velvet..... so big change that this visor was altered at some time to make a Fliegerhorstfeuerwehr visor of it..... ( these are worth much more )
    Not "textbook" but WHEN was it done ????
    I've handled 3 "Fliegerhorstfeuerwehr" visors in my collecting years : all 3 had the Fliegerhorstfeurwehr insignia , but also a black velvet centerband.... AND : EMPTY HOLES IN THE PASTEBOARD WHERE THERE WAS ONCE A POLICE CAP EAGLE !!!

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    And some examples of "wrong" eagles..... first a Reichpost visor with a small Reichsbahn cap eagle ( it should have the larger state eagle...)

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    And a large state eagle on a 1st. pattern Reichsbahn visor..... this cap should have the eagle on the visor shown above.....

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    This one is listed as "Luftwaffe Firebrigade" visor..... IT IS NOT !!! Just a FLAK visor with a large state eagle.....

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    And this overseas cap : listed as Luftwaffe medical ?????? it's just a German Red Cross cap with added Luftwaffe eagle...

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    So many "exceptions to the rules" ..... just after looking for 5 minutes on different websites......

    Theo

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