badges etc.

[Andrew]

i did a little looking around the net on the W.Deumer RO. i found a few most have different hardware on the back from each other. i take into account the almost 10 years of production, varied materials and suppliers. things will be different.

[Andrew]

Hi Gent's,
with some TR items there will just be question's. so i hope i can clear things up with other examples.
the sites i get these pics from. i dont know them. i'll post the name, and hopefully some one knows if they are reputable. i'm not looking to buy from them, only to use them as examples.
www.regimentaldepot.com
has some badges, i cant copy the pics. but the assmann observer has the stamped in A, and the assman flak has the single raised A assmann did use both even on the observer badge.
this site
Observer Badges
is a friend of Ade's as i understand. his samples show a nice example of a stamped A logo on the observer. and he has two examples of the deumer RO badge both with different hardware. and slightly different cut out on the lightning bolts.
this site IF TRUSTWORTHY and i honestly dont know these sites other than just looking. this one has some nice examples
Third Reich German WWII Award Badges * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * lbmilitaria ...of the assmann badges.
Luftwaffe Wireless Operator/Air Gunner's Badge by "Deumer" this is just another example of a deumer RO later war, different hardware from the other two shown on one of the sites. no cut out lightning bolts . site also shows the assmann flak and R.K. ground assault badge with an ugly pin attachment.
these are just a few other examples like mine.
i welcome being shown anything to the contrary. as i am here to learn too. but i prefer some kind of example.
andrew

[Andrew]

hello again,
i'm starting to feel guilty posting so i find the need to explain my self .
please, please please. understand this is not about my items being good or not to me. they can be burried with me for all it matters. all i want is realistic dialog so that we can all learn. there are to many like me that shy away from badges because of the hastles they can cause. and that is the last thing i want. i have had at least a hundred combat badges in my collection over time and i still dont know squat. but what i do know, is there are 3 recognized periods of manufacture. early war, mid war, and late war. and with many makers, hardware changed accordingly, and with what was available. as to assembly. same deal different times workers changed. by the end it was really old men and kids. and at any time i think much depends on the worker, the day and the materials on hand. so you have to look at things over all. keep in mind i'm not looking to sell you anything, i'm not asking you to take my word for anything. i'm asking you to look long and hard at many examples, and considder the time and the reality of factory work. i have been a factory metel worker my self. materials can vary. so can people.
i honest to god feel bad about dissagreeing with people, so i cant stress enough this is not about personalities or anything other than keeping the records straight so younger and just newer collectors are not scared away from a decent item. and dont get screwd by fakes. i want collectors to educate them selfs by looking at as many different examples as they possably can. books are good to a point, but they usually show just the best ones they could find. not all the vareations.
in reguards to the assmann A as a rule early tumbac were stamped in ( hard material) depth varied even the A design could vary, mid war that step was removed with the softer material. the press left a raised A. assmann hardware changed on the later badges as shown on this site. flakbadges
i dont know the owner, but if you click on the gallery for luft badges. you will find 2 nice examples of early and mid war assmann flak badges . note the markings and the hardware, and how the lower catch looks repaired but its not .
i reall cant stress enough this is about just keeping it honest for collectors. and the importance of looking for details. you have to take into account the time period of manufacture and go from there.
i really do appoligize if i offend anyone. and i'll be the first to admit i dont know alot. and that is the whole point of a place like this to have honest and open discussions about the differences in things. at least i hope so. but in order to truly learn, we have to put personalities aside and discuss why or why not something is good or bad. understanding the details will help us all.
andrew

[John Brandon]

Andrew
I don't think you've offend anyone, you certainly haven't offended me, however if you put items up for discussion you must expect varied opinions. It just so happens that I do not agree with you that they are good items. That is not to say that you are wrong, or indeed that I am right. I, have to, have a "gut" feeling about items especially badges. I have handled plenty of originals, and high quality fakes

Now folks on here will tell you I've been wrong before. I have bought badges that were not as they appeared. I am very cautious, and simply stated that they would not be for me. I look at it as selling on, and anything which does not conform to known originals can be a stickler for getting your money back on.

I stand by what I said, however there may well be other opinions that go in your favour, just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean you've offended them.

But put them up for discussion, and you could expect up to 40 different opinions, because thats what happens in this game, it is all based on opinions, and they are like ars***les, everyone has one

[Andrew]

thank you John,
i'm glad all is well. i do expect varied oipinions too. i would only ask that you considder the information i put forth, and look at the other examples at the links i have posted. none of us are right all the time, but we always have to be willing to look at different information. i'm really hoping others would chime in with examples.
and it would help me for sure if you can post some examples of ones that are different from mine. so i can understand what your going by.
you are right about opinion, that is why i try to back my opinion up with other known examples. i like a good healthy debate. but i also expect to give proof to my point, and i'm trying to do that. so please take a look at the sites i posted. and let me know if you see what i do. unfortunatly i could not just copy the pictures. but i't might be better for people to check the sites out them selfs.
none of us knows it all, and this hobbie can't be based on opinion alone. so i'm open to being shown other examples in the spirit of learning. i showed you mine now show me your's. as it were . i say that with a friendly chuckle.
andrew

[John Brandon]

Ok here we go................. BeobachterabzeichenReverse of a Assmann Observers badge, considered to be "textbook" on Assmann Observer's, the "A" mark was in raised relief and an integral part of the reverse die.

Flak Kampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe

Almost all (to my knowledge) Assmann Flak badges had the double mark (one on the left wing) and I can see them both in your pictures Andrew.Two photos one tombak, and the other plated zinc

Fliegerschützenazeichen für Bordfunker

Radio/Air Gunners 2 pictures shown again tombak, and nickel silver.

compare dot com

[Andrew]

Hi john,
thank you for your post. but my eyes see something different. i would like another opinion on the assmann observer you show, because it definitly looks like a stamped in logo to me and not raised. and yes, they did both,
the deumer proves my point that hardware will vary those are just two examples of it, on your two even the eagles vary in how they are cut out. if your looking for consistancy, they don't show it. they do show however that quality and materials changed. one has a cut out swaz and the other not. should the differences mean one is fake ? no
the assman flack is marked on the wing and back with the single raised A and has correct hardware compared to others i have looked at. the second flak shows no maker mark at all. i'll try to find better pictures to show it.
andrew

[Andrew]

New Page 0 link to assmann observer - stamped in A sold for 13 hundred
New Page 0 Assmann flak selling for 40+ same hinge single A marked
New Page 0 another assmann flak same hinge, different markings with stamped in logo, die flaw says its original though.
this site shoes good pics of an early assmann flak with a stamped in logo. and next to it a later style with a raised logo.
these links are just some visual refferences.
and again this is not about anything but educating collectors to the valid differences in war time pieces.
i'll be happy to say i'm wrong if you can reasonably show me i am. but as it stands i think i have shown proof that these badges are original and fit normal construction.
any one, please try to find an early observer in nickle or tombak with a raised A because i just cant find a picture of one. my eyes see the other example as stamped in. just like mine.
andrew

[Stewy S]

Hi Andrew,Flak's bad sorry. L/W GAB's ok. I'll check out the rest in a bit. Stewy S

[Stewy S]

My late war zinc RO/AG. Stewy S