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Diplomat's Dagger for Review

Article about: by Larry C Then the dagger has been opened and parted...which according to Cogs analysis...the eagle IMO has been replaced..unless other Alcoso examples with this blade logo variant can be f

  1. #1

    Default Diplomat's Dagger for Review

    A friend of mine is liquidating his collection. He took photos of two interesting/ rare(?) daggers that he'd like me to get more information on.

    Here we have a Diplomat's Dagger. To be honest, I know nothing about these...

    Unfortunately, my friend is not the best with technology... This is the best he can do in terms of photos for now... I'll probably have to meet him in person to snap better photos of these myself...

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    Last edited by GIZMO8Z; 09-29-2013 at 04:45 PM.

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  3. #2

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    From these poor pics I also do not like it.

    Eric
    [h=3]e plu·ri·bus u·num[/h]

  4. #3

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    Better photos are definitely needed. Im not sure of the logo being correct running parallel to the blade compared to the across the blade variant. Close ups of the crossguard eagle and the Mother of Pearl grip plates would greatly help.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #4

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    The Government Official's eagle faces in the opposite direction-this one is correct orientation for a Diplomatic. Unfortunately, from what I can see from the photos,there are a few things I'm not that comfortable with it. The main concern being,as Larry pointed out, the makers logo is unusual. I have never seen one with it applied in the direction that this one has been. It Could be a variant I've never encountered before, but for now, I'm not feeling good about it. The horizontal A.C.S. Alcoso Solingen mark Was Used by Alcoso, though, so it is possible. But was it used on Diplomatics? I've always been told that there Were no variants with the Diplomatics(aside from the phantom Eickhorn), so this is not a good sign. There is also, from what we can see, no trace at all of the heavy silver plating on the parts and the eagle's claws-it may be just the photos, but I'm not seeing that they have any of the prominent knuckles that they should be showing. And, for what it's worth, the hanger clip looks abit on the large size, but, again, this could simply be the photos. So, there it sits-we need concise photos. Diplomatics are Very hair raising to authenticate, but the grip material fit is as it should be and the sheath isn't showing any immediate red flags that I can make out. Until we can get better photo's, I'd leave this one in the "Unproven" column for now...
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  6. #5

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    Hello, gentlemen:
    I was able to make the trip to my friend's house to take some better photos. Hopefully these photos will help with authenticating this dagger.

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  7. #6

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    Unfortunately, with these new photos, I'd have to say that it's a repro. The grip panels are a much worse fit that originally thought, and that is one of the vital key prerequisites for Diplomatics. The other problem bits too-such as the unusual makers mark and the total lack of silver plating, etc pretty much sink this one firmly into the replica column.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  8. #7

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    Very sorry to hear that, William!

    I'd still like to hear a few more opinions, but if fake I'd like to extend my sincere apologies, everyone!

  9. #8

    Default

    No need for apologies here..you have done nothing wrong,,,but I think more opinions are needed here..as there are some issues that William has pointed out..but also some common issues that are also seen with authentic examples. Plating loss is common on both Diplomat and government official daggers...but can be common also with junk repros. I posted 1 photo of each for comparison..of what I seen in the crossguard eagle. Your photo..Giz ,,has the eagles feet looking like it was caught in a meat grinder...no detail at all and the toe nails or knuckles can not be seen..the other photo..is a GDC photo..( also included is the link to that thread showing both the govt. and diplo officials daggers )

    A huge problem with these type of daggers is that the fakers are getting very good at replicating to the minute detail. As William points out the fit of the grip panels are in question..as I see a gap on the back part of the grip band. The logo as I previously stated is also in question as I never seen a variant of that type on a diplomat dagger..always the deeper etched version across the blade type. These daggers are internally numbered..but i hope from what you can see in the GDC link I provided and the characteristics of the cross guard eagle..should have one to take a deeper look into what else could be seen in comparison with the GDC examples,,.. without taking the dagger down to see any numbering if any. I advise against taking down this type of dagger as the grip panels are brittle and will not fit the same once put back together.

    Take the time and study the differences..as I myself do not have a good feeling about this dagger. TENO and HJ leaders daggers run very close together also in near perfect reproductions. below are the 2 photos I specified above. Regards Larry


    Diplomat and Govt daggers and swords! - GermanDaggers.com
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    Attached Images Attached Images  
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #9

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    The other issue is look at where the upper carrying band sits well below the swaz wreath compared to the GDC diplo and Govt Off. examples. The eagles toes seem to touch the wreath on your friends example but on authentic examples..the feet appear to be sitting on the wreath or " clutching" the wreath...which is how any Political eagle should appear on any dagger type.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  11. #10

    Default

    Joe, Take a look at the 2 photo's below. You'll see what I meant by the grip not having any gaps and fitting perfectly. This grip fit is a hallmark of an authentic Diplomatic. The eagle's claws, as I had mentioned earlier, have no large knuckles, as this example does. As Larry said, the eagle on your piece, the claws look draped over the wreath, where as, you can see below, that they should be splayed out to clutch the wreath.These 2 photos are of another Alcoso example, by the way. I'm not all that worried that the wreath sits deeply over the upper sheath band, as you can find examples of both deep and of halfway over, but the eagle claws and the grip are essential and should look like the pictures below. And, the oddly stamped makers mark. Why the fakers would have committed such a base error is beyond me-unless,they were deliberately marking it that way to differentiate their replica from a genuine? These Diplo's are Very rare and examples are usually found well over $12 or 13,000! They are, unfortunately, heavily faked for this very reason, of course-and some are Very well faked indeed.

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    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

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