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DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

Article about: by Sleepwalker Romania gets vz24 bayontes since 1941, not after the war. But the Romanians refresh a lot of this bayontes after 1945 (but not all). It is a matter of fakt, that wie have not

  1. #11

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Its these types of clarified explanations that are so beneficial to the forum. very detailed! Thanks Fred ...regards Larry

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  3. #12

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Here's a close up of mine with the aforementioned cross hatching. Upper right you can even see the rough forging. This one might of been previously rejected for that. Anybody ever seen one like this? So you think that the A80s came later? Doug
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  4. #13

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Quote by DerKerl View Post
    Here's a close up of mine with the aforementioned cross hatching. Upper right you can even see the rough forging. This one might of been previously rejected for that. Anybody ever seen one like this? So you think that the A80s came later? Doug
    Doug, Many early TR period German pistols, rifles, and 98k bayonets (etc.) have a high polish finish which gradually degraded to a rougher military grade finish as the war progressed. With some of the really late items having a lot of imperfections that were crude but that did not impede serviceability.

    Drop forged steel by its nature has irregularities and “scale” etc. as a part of the drop forging process. With the ‘cross hatching’ looking like that from a milling process to get the blade cut down to the desired dimensions from its rough forged state. So I don’t consider that a defect from my perspective, but instead a shortcut in manufacturing by not removing the tool/other residual marks. Which for most practical purposes would have been invisible in a finished blade if it had been sandblasted and phosphated like the early full muzzle ring types (which of course these were not - just blued).

    I’ve got some OEM references examples I can check tomorrow - with my best immediate recollection at the moment being that all of the Bystrica Eagle/A80 series bayonets have the ‘cross hatching’ to a greater or lesser extent. With one other thing to keep in mind being that Bystrica did not get its letter code (“dou”) until April of 1941. With my point being that I think that the Bystrica made bayonets are a version of the no muzzle ring CZ bayonets that was not made later than mid 1941 (with some give or take depending on how smooth the transition was). Regards, Fred
    Last edited by Frogprince; 07-02-2012 at 09:52 AM.

  5. #14

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    To "cut to the chase": After some looking and thinking (including the full muzzle ring type which is not an Eagle/A80) - it's my belief that the 'cross hatched' types are most likely later in the production series. With the same to be said for the "rough patch" (for lack of a better term) on the blades. Neither of which was critical to the ability of the blade to fit inside the scabbard. With more or an equal amount of attention paid to the hilt parts which were critical to the bayonet being able to be attached to a rifle irrespective of being earlier or later production. Fred

  6. #15

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Hallo,

    the plant of the Waffenwerke Brünn AG not delivered only German troops. Without a WaA acceptance it can also by an export contract to, for example, Romania. You also can find "945" marked Vz24 / S25(t) that was a contract for Romania. Z in dopple Cricle is the plant of Povázská Bystrica. The WaA Inspectors there used 1940 the WaA 670 und after this time WaA A80.

  7. #16

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hallo,

    the plant of the Waffenwerke Brünn AG not delivered only German troops. Without a WaA acceptance it can also by an export contract to, for example, Romania. You also can find "945" marked Vz24 / S25(t) that was a contract for Romania. Z in dopple Cricle is the plant of Povázská Bystrica. The WaA Inspectors there used 1940 the WaA 670 und after this time WaA A80.
    Do we know which other groups or countries ordered these and when? Thank you for your help. Doug

  8. #17

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Attachment 366172Hello,

    the dokuments of Brünn are all lost... no chance.

    Brünn delivered Vz24 to the Germans (there S24(t) called), Bulgaria and Romania and other countries. Romania was delivered since 1941. Andy know more about contracts. There still many varieties. Some with muzzle ring, some without... German one can be found with muzzle Ring (high captured quantities and new made z in dobble circle with WaA 607, z in circle, WaA 63), without ( z in double-circle A80, Z in circle with WaA 63, dot code with WaA 63) and with cut-off muzzle ring (all the former muzzle-Ring variations). The scabbards for German use, production since 1940, never bear a Z in circle or double-circle !!. This scabbards have no Mark, a big WaA 63 or a little WaA 63 symbol.)

    I think this model with the two Z in double circle, one on the blade the other of the frog stud, is an export version to an foreign country, like the "945" examples.

    Here is a picture over the symbols found on Romanian Vz24... with the additional Information of mine, the the double-circled Z also found an scabbards.

    http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...cn_numbers.jpg

    I personaly think, this is an export to Romania in 1941/42/43

    Best Regards
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    Last edited by Sleepwalker; 07-03-2012 at 10:10 PM.

  9. #18

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Attachment 366172Hello,

    the dokuments of Brünn are all lost... no chance.

    Brünn delivered Vz24 to the Germans (there S24(t) called), Bulgaria and Romania and other countries. Romania was delivered since 1941. Andy know more about contracts. There still many varieties. Some with muzzle ring, some without... German one can be found with muzzle Ring (high captured quantities and new made z in dobble circle with WaA 607, z in circle, WaA 63), without ( z in double-circle A80, Z in circle with WaA 63, dot code with WaA 63) and with cut-off muzzle ring (all the former muzzle-Ring variations). The scabbards for German use, production since 1940, never bear a Z in circle or double-circle !!. This scabbards have no Mark, a big WaA 63 or a little WaA 63 symbol.)

    I think this model with the two Z in double circle, one on the blade the other of the frog stud, is an export version to an foreign country, like the "945" examples.

    Here is a picture over the symbols found on Romanian Vz24... with the additional Information of mine, the the double-circled Z also found an scabbards.

    http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...cn_numbers.jpg

    I personaly think, this is an export to Romania in 1941/42/43

    Best Regards
    Very nice. Thanks a whole bunch. I would think that there would be private companies and non military government organizations also buying in the late '30s & early '40s. Thanks again, Doug

  10. #19

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Ceskoslovenská Zbrojovka exported its products to a number of other countries before the war. With a very long list of customers (20 +) prior to the annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938, with three contracts in force in 1938. But with the Germans now in control, they systematically began taking the large stores of Czech Army weapons for use by the Wehrmacht (with the SS deprived of German resources also getting a large number). With one of the problems in tracking them (the bayonets) being a general lack of dating for export models. Whereas with the bayonets originally made for the Czech Army they are dated, and the source is indicated. With a secondary source of information being the rifles themselves with their markings.

    The “945” code is seen on the early (1940) G33/40 carbines for the Wehrmacht with a WaA 63 Waffenamt. And (as pictured) there is a full muzzle ring CZ bayonet, also with a WaA 63 done in the prewar Czech manner without the customary Czech “CSZ/letter block” markings, but having a single Circle/Z on the ricasso. With the 1940 dated Vz 24 pattern (full muzzle ring) bayonets for Slovakia having the prewar Czech style markings customized for Slovakia, but no Waffenamts.

    With something else that I think has to be kept in mind being that Romania was a wartime ally of Germany. And received not just small arms, but also some more sophisticated weapons systems. And while ex-German rifles and bayonets turned up in Romania’s postwar inventory (including some w/o muzzle rings) like they did with many other countries. The overwhelming bulk of the arms were the standard types from Czechoslovakia. And not content to leave things alone the Romanians reworked almost everything.

    With the attached images showing as first manufactured the early CZ/German Bystrica marking. A 1943 “dot 43” for the Wehrmacht with no muzzle ring. Contrasted with its full muzzle ring “dot 43” counterpart that has no Waffenamts, but does have a Romanian acceptance stamp. And I’m afraid that I have to respectfully disagree to some extent. The ex-Romanian bayonets are almost always reworked. Whereas I’ve seen some “dot 42” and “dot 43” bayonets that seem to have never been issued for some reason. And a few of the Bystrica type examples in relatively unused condition long before we ever saw the bulk exportation of ex-Romanian arms. PS: The scabbard is not what I’m used to seeing, so I leave that part to others who may be more familiar with it.

    Best Regards to All, Fred
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  11. #20

    Default Re: DOT42-3 like commercial Czech Bayonet Wartime?

    Romania gets vz24 bayontes since 1941, not after the war. But the Romanians refresh a lot of this bayontes after 1945 (but not all). It is a matter of fakt, that wie have not enoght informations. The rest is Spekulation. The variations with german acceptance are known.
    The "945" Bayonets never seen with german acaptence. But they have a Romanian one between the grips (were usualy the czech or the WaA63 were placed)

    Can you please made photos of the angle between the grips?
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