Become our sponsor and display your banner here
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

How to spot a fake TR blade

Article about: Had this for a while, and just used part of it on another thread. I thought it may make a good post..........Here goes If a faker is going to create a dagger intended to sell in the £1500.00

  1. #1

    Default How to spot a fake TR blade

    Had this for a while, and just used part of it on another thread. I thought it may make a good post..........Here goes

    If a faker is going to create a dagger intended to sell in the £1500.00 to £2000.00 range he (or she!) is perfectly happy to pay £500.00 for a dagger to start with.
    After purchase of a subject dagger to be altered, a decision is made as to whether the new creation will be marketed as a pristine original in very fine to mint condition, or if it will be sold in good to excellent used condition. The original dagger is then stripped down and the parts are simply added to bins of similar parts from other broken down daggers
    The blade to be used must be
    1) used as it is,
    2) fixed up slightly,
    3) refinished entirely.
    To add the greatest value to the end product, the faker will usually select option 3 and refinish the entire blade. Commercial metal finishers or people working inside the metal finishing business can duplicate the original Third Reich finish on a dagger blade quickly and cheaply and at the same time remove the original etching on the blade. This is not a job to be done at home, as any unevenness is easily detectable. A factory finish is perfect, and removes very little metal from the blade. Fakers almost always remove the original etching from the blades of daggers they are working on because it is so easy to replace. The process is known industrially as "photo-engraving" or "photo resist etching'" and it is used every day to make things like printed circuit boards.
    A photo resists is a liquid lacquer-type substance to which photo sensitive material like ammonium bichromate has been added. It is applied to the blade of a dagger by dipping the blade in it or pouring the resist directly on the blade. The blade is then suspended or stood on end in a dark place so the excess resist can flow off and the remainder can dry. When dry, the blade looks like it has been varnished.

    A film positive of the inscription to be etched on the blade is then positioned where it belongs on the blade, and is taped in place with transparent tape. The blade is placed in a plastic bag with a vacuum hose attached. When the vacuum is turned on the film negative is sucked tightly against the blade. The side of the blade with the film on it is then positioned in front of a carbon arc lamp (plain sunlight will also do the trick) for about one minute while light hardens the photo resist where it shows through clear film. Naturally, no light reaches the photo resist under the black pad of the film, so those photo resist spots remain soft and can be removed with a chemical developer. When the soft photo resist is removed it erases bare steel.

    After baking the hardened photo resist to make it durable the blade is washed or sprayed with a solution like ferric chloride which removes exposed steel very quickly. To duplicate logo etching on a steel blade may require 2 or 3 minutes. To get a very deep etch as seen on the motto on some blades, or to replicate damascene work may require 5 to 10 minutes of etching depending on the temperature of the ferric chloride.

    When the etch is correct the blade is removed, rinsed in clear water and then the hardened resist is removed with lacquer thinner. If it is desired, the etched spots can be chemically blackened prior to removal of the resist.

    This type of etching is capable of reproducing extremely fine detail which has critically sharp edges and corners, even when examined under a powerful glass. A cheaper method which is capable of reproducing good, but not fine detail, is to silk screen a resist (like paint) on the blade leaving some areas of exposed steel. When silk screened resists and their resulting etchings are viewed under a useful glass

    The least expensive method, but one often used by the fakers is to hand paint the resist on the blade leaving open areas to be etched.

    There is absolutely no way to tell a good etched blade made in 1940 from a good etched blade made yesterday. Anyone who says he can is vastly over estimating his ability. The best experts in the field are fooled by new blades everyday. The processes can be identical to those originally used and the technicians of today are at least as good as those of 50 years ago. All facilities and equipment are better.

    Interestingly, there are now people promoting the service of making"undetectable" repairs to edged weapons. These repairs including painting, covering with leather, the replacement of missing parts,etc., etc. Such repairs do not increase the historical value of the piece at all (if they did the Venus di Milo would have been restored years ago). All they really do is increase the value of the weapon for resale to someone who is unaware of the repairs made.
    The salvation of the blade fakers are those collectors who seek a rare and unique piece - a one-of-a-kind knock-out of a blade, to exhibit for the even more gullible to look at. The best advice I can give is to BE VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ANY NON-STANDARD EDGED weapon.
    Reproduction German daggers first made their appearance immediately following World War II. Enterprising Solingen manufacturers recognised the souvenir demand for their edged weapons and hastily assembled the first "parts" daggers out of war-time surplus with post-war parts. However, the major deluge of reproductions was not witnessed until the values of authentic pieces had escalated to a high enough plateau to make the manufacture of reproductions economical. Although the establishment of an exact date when the plateau was reached is an exercise in futility, the majority of collectors will place this date during the early sixties. During that time frame, the values of many authentic Third Reich edged weapons had reached the critical point making reproductions a very profitable venture.

    The floodgates were opened and bogus pieces were soon to be manufactured in England, Spain, as well as in Germany.
    Several of the original WorldWar II Waffenfabriken (arms factories) resorted to assembling and manufacturing spurious edged weapons as a source of additional income.
    Little has been done to turn the tide against the unscrupulous occupation of marketing spurious collectibles. It is doubtful that any future international legal restraints will hamper this operation, and reproductions will continue to be dumped into the market place in ever increasing numbers. Thus, the only rational course of action is to identify reproductions in their true relationship to the original pieces rather than ignore and, subsequently, mistake them for originals. The only defence against the reproduction onslaught is to arm oneself with full knowledge of reproduction manufacture, types, etc.


    So you thought you knew your fakes?

    Additional information credit: Transferred from Lakesidetrader..and other Militaria sites Regards Larry

    1. New Appearance.
    The vast majority of edged weapon reproductions on the market today appear to have been manufactured within the past few weeks (and might well have been!). Quite frankly, thirty years of age will tend to leave some telltale signs, regardless of the care and storage means utilized. When examining a piece, look at the screw heads. Are they bright, shiny, and completely free of any dirt or corrosion?
    Take a flashlight and have a close look at the inside of the scabbard throat. If all the internal parts appear to have been made earlier in the month, they probably were! Unfortunately, this new appearance indicator will not stand alone, as some unscrupulous individuals have discovered such devious means as burying, soaking in urine, etc., to purposely "age" reproduction pieces. Keep in mind that old appearance alone is no guarantee of authenticity.

    2. Misfitting Parts.
    To state that German quality control is usually superior would probably be the understatement of the year. The fact that Third Reich weapon quality control was superior is evidenced by the recent reproductions manufactured in the United States, Spain, England, China, CZ, etc... being no match for the originals. Thus, be wary of any misfitting parts. For example, if an SA dagger wooden grip bears large gaps between the handle and the crossguard, rest assured that it never would have left the factory. In general, be on the lookout for crudeness in manufacture and/or fit of component parts. Also take the time to include exact dagger dimensions in your edged weapons reference library. Numerous reproductions have grossly inaccurate dimensions.

    3. Unusual Variations.
    With the ever-increasing escalation of Third Reich prices, a multitude of “one-of-a-kind” prototypes are finding their way into the market. While some of these pieces are indeed authentic prototypes, a 'non-documented' prototype should be approached with a great deal of caution. The vast majority of "prototype" Nazi daggers being offered for sale today are reproductions, and since the prototype pieces demand top dollar, insist upon complete documentation prior to the purchase of one.

    4. Faulty Engraving.
    Like the previous indicator, the premium prices sought for Third Reich edged weapons bearing engraved blades have opened the flood gates for reproduction engraved bayonets, daggers, and swords. Not only are complete blades currently being manufactured, but unscrupulous dealers and collectors are resorting to having the local jeweler engrave crossguards, scabbard fittings, etc., with fictitious (and sometimes actual) German names and units. Advice on the engraving issue: first, study the engraving style, depth, etc., of known original pieces. More times than not, the local jeweler's version is completely 'foreign' to the characteristic German patterns utilized during the war years. Remember that ALL the SA, SS, NSKK daggers had acid etched motto’s and maker marks. Just run over the motto with your finger nail and you can actually feel the difference when you have an acid etched motto or an engraved motto.

    5. Incorrect Proofmarks.
    The size of the edged weapons factories during WWII ranged from mammoth corporations to small 'cottage-craft' shops operated in the rear of Solingen homes. Obviously, each individual firm did not manufacture the entire plethoric gamut of Third Reich. In some cases, a single firm designed a particular model dagger and application for a patent was made. The blade was then stamped GES.GESCH. (Patent Pending). Prime examples of patented model designs are the TENO Officer and Enlisted daggers by Carl Eickhorn. Even the more common models were often restricted to several selected manufacturers.

    6. Incorrect Accouterments.
    An excellent red flag source is the accompanying accouterments to a particular sidearm. Although it is obvious that hangers, frogs, and knots are interchangeable and are often switched on authentic pieces, the reverse is usually true with reproductions. Most 'repros' are manufactured complete to include the accompanying leather or fabric accouterments. Thus, the wary collector is provided with yet another invaluable red flag source. When examining accouterments make a careful inspection of the inside of leather items. Does the natural leather and thread stitching exhibit the appropriate aging? If all of the known original standard bayonet frogs that you have observed were constructed of smooth leather, and you are offered the 'opportunity' to purchase one constructed of pebbled leather - BEWARE! Check the condition and wear of the portepee/knot. Does it appear to be recently manufactured? One final word of caution, some unscrupulous dealers will add authentic trappings to a reproduction sidearm in order to avoid this particular red flag. Thus, one should not attempt to let this indicator stand alone, but utilize it in conjunction with the previously mentioned indicators.

    7. Incorrect Factory Markings.
    Should you be fortunate enough to acquire a factory new (unissued) piece, compare the manufacturer name listed on the cardboard issue tag and/or paper shipping bag with the RZM code engraved on the blade. Obviously, if the piece is unaltered, the manufacturer name listed on the tag and shipping bag should be the same company who’s RZM number appears on the blade.

    8. Non-existent Models.
    Unscrupulous dealers have gone as far as to promote a demand for “original" Third Reich blades which never even existed under the Reich! The best example of this fraudulent effort is the brass Eickhorn SS pocket/Fallschirmjaeger knife. These spurious SS knives are presently being manufactured in England and are 100% reproductions. Interesting enough, this particular fake has been manufactured with built-in aging and appears to be original in all respects. However, as mentioned in the discussion of the first indicator above, 'aging’ can be accomplished by artificial means. The wholesale price of these knives from the manufacture is only a few dollars each. However, since research indicates that this piece never existed and is a complete reproduction, its true value is much less than even the wholesale price. As a matter of fact, strictly from a collector's standpoint, this item is worthless and only tends to mar an authentic collection of Third Reich edged weapons.
    Last edited by Larry C; 02-25-2014 at 06:11 PM.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    P
    Many
     

  3. #2

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    Quote by John Brandon View Post
    Had this for a while, and just used part of it on another thread. I thought it may make a good post..........Here goes

    If a faker is going to create a dagger intended to sell in the £1500.00 to £2000.00 range he (or she!) is perfectly happy to pay £500.00 for a dagger to start with.
    After purchase of a subject dagger to be altered, a decision is made as to whether the new creation will be marketed as a pristine original in very fine to mint condition, or if it will be sold in good to excellent used condition. The original dagger is then stripped down and the parts are simply added to bins of similar parts from other broken down daggers
    The blade to be used must be
    1) used as it is,
    2) fixed up slightly,
    3) refinished entirely.
    To add the greatest value to the end product, the faker will usually select option 3 and refinish the entire blade. Commercial metal finishers or people working inside the metal finishing business can duplicate the original Third Reich finish on a dagger blade quickly and cheaply and at the same time remove the original etching on the blade. This is not a job to be done at home, as any unevenness is easily detectable. A factory finish is perfect, and removes very little metal from the blade. Fakers almost always remove the original etching from the blades of daggers they are working on because it is so easy to replace. The process is known industrially as "photo-engraving" or "photo resist etching'" and it is used every day to make things like printed circuit boards.
    A photo resists is a liquid lacquer-type substance to which photo sensitive material like ammonium bichromate has been added. It is applied to the blade of a dagger by dipping the blade in it or pouring the resist directly on the blade. The blade is then suspended or stood on end in a dark place so the excess resist can flow off and the remainder can dry. When dry, the blade looks like it has been varnished.

    A film positive of the inscription to be etched on the blade is then positioned where it belongs on the blade, and is taped in place with transparent tape. The blade is placed in a plastic bag with a vacuum hose attached. When the vacuum is turned on the film negative is sucked tightly against the blade. The side of the blade with the film on it is then positioned in front of a carbon arc lamp (plain sunlight will also do the trick) for about one minute while light hardens the photo resist where it shows through clear film. Naturally, no light reaches the photo resist under the black pad of the film, so those photo resist spots remain soft and can be removed with a chemical developer. When the soft photo resist is removed it erases bare steel.

    After baking the hardened photo resist to make it durable the blade is washed or sprayed with a solution like ferric chloride which removes exposed steel very quickly. To duplicate logo etching on a steel blade may require 2 or 3 minutes. To get a very deep etch as seen on the motto on some blades, or to replicate damascene work may require 5 to 10 minutes of etching depending on the temperature of the ferric chloride.

    When the etch is correct the blade is removed, rinsed in clear water and then the hardened resist is removed with lacquer thinner. If it is desired, the etched spots can be chemically blackened prior to removal of the resist.

    This type of etching is capable of reproducing extremely fine detail which has critically sharp edges and corners, even when examined under a powerful glass. A cheaper method which is capable of reproducing good, but not fine detail, is to silk screen a resist (like paint) on the blade leaving some areas of exposed steel. When silk screened resists and their resulting etchings are viewed under a useful glass

    The least expensive method, but one often used by the fakers is to hand paint the resist on the blade leaving open areas to be etched.

    There is absolutely no way to tell a good etched blade made in 1940 from a good etched blade made yesterday. Anyone who says he can is vastly over estimating his ability. The best experts in the field are fooled by new blades everyday. The processes can be identical to those originally used and the technicians of today are at least as good as those of 50 years ago. All facilities and equipment are better.

    Interestingly, there are now people promoting the service of making"undetectable" repairs to edged weapons. These repairs including painting, covering with leather, the replacement of missing parts,etc., etc. Such repairs do not increase the historical value of the piece at all (if they did the Venus di Milo would have been restored years ago). All they really do is increase the value of the weapon for resale to someone who is unaware of the repairs made.
    The salvation of the blade fakers are those collectors who seek a rare and unique piece - a one-of-a-kind knock-out of a blade, to exhibit for the even more gullible to look at. The best advice I can give is to BE VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ANY NON-STANDARD EDGED weapon.
    Reproduction German daggers first made their appearance immediately following World War II. Enterprising Solingen manufacturers recognised the souvenir demand for their edged weapons and hastily assembled the first "parts" daggers out of war-time surplus with post-war parts. However, the major deluge of reproductions was not witnessed until the values of authentic pieces had escalated to a high enough plateau to make the manufacture of reproductions economical. Although the establishment of an exact date when the plateau was reached is an exercise in futility, the majority of collectors will place this date during the early sixties. During that time frame, the values of many authentic Third Reich edged weapons had reached the critical point making reproductions a very profitable venture.

    The floodgates were opened and bogus pieces were soon to be manufactured in England, Spain, as well as in Germany.
    Several of the original WorldWar II Waffenfabriken (arms factories) resorted to assembling and manufacturing spurious edged weapons as a source of additional income.
    Little has been done to turn the tide against the unscrupulous occupation of marketing spurious collectibles. It is doubtful that any future international legal restraints will hamper this operation, and reproductions will continue to be dumped into the market place in ever increasing numbers. Thus, the only rational course of action is to identify reproductions in their true relationship to the original pieces rather than ignore and, subsequently, mistake them for originals. The only defence against the reproduction onslaught is to arm oneself with full knowledge of reproduction manufacture, types, etc.


    So you thought you knew your fakes?
    Very informative, thanks for posting.
    Terry

  4. #3

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    yes,,,very good info to pass along,,,thanks,,Robert

  5. #4
    ?

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    many thanks to you for the much needed info!

  6. #5

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    So if I want to buy a blade what should one do? I am guessing that there are legitimate dealers around somewhere that will give a COA letter and a guarantee refund, the way it sounds is that everybody in the business of selling German Military are somehow cheats and charlatans.At some time are other you have to trust some one.

  7. #6

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    I would recommend forum member and dealer Paul. He is honest and trustworthy:

    Lakesidetrader German Dagger & Military Collectable Site

    Cheers, Ade

  8. #7

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    A point I often tryied to make on several different items.
    It is just that I can't put it that good as thise!
    cheers
    |<
    Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
    cheers
    |<ris

  9. #8

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    Well I am glad to say that I have recently purchased a HJ knife from Lakesidetrader,thanks for the advise.

  10. #9
    ?

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    Great information, thank you for taking the time to keep us updated and informed!
    Regards, Edwin

  11. #10

    Default Re: How to spot a fake TR blade

    Thanks John!! this is very sobering. Larry

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 05-16-2017, 05:42 AM
  2. 05-14-2010, 12:36 PM
  3. interresting daggers

    In Daggers and Swords of the Third Reich
    01-06-2010, 04:05 PM
  4. Any Japanese Blade experts here?

    In Japanese Militaria
    10-17-2009, 01:20 AM
  5. Type 30 Arisaka bayonet Real or Fake

    In Bayonets and trench knives of the world
    06-15-2009, 03:55 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •