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Non Military German Side Arms

Article about: Hi All, I have started this thread with a view to fellow edged weapon collectors and me to facilitate the display and talk about German side arms of a non military type to include sporting a

  1. #11

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    ITEM 05 Hirschfanger or Hunting Dagger.

    This particular weapon was manufacturered by the well known firm of Paul Weyersberg & Co of Solingen and is of a high quality with matching etching. The Trade Mark comprises a vertical sword standing on its point encompassed by an open top vertical wreath of laurel. The logo is encompassed by a vertical oval ribbon bearing the Firm's title.


    HILT

    1. Grip. The grip is of natural horn with a fairly coarse finish.
    2. Grip insignia. The insignia on the grip is a very common pattern in the form of three vertically mounted acorns.
    3. Knuckle bow. Not a feature on this weapon.
    4. Pommel. The pommel on this weapon is a fluted patterne cap with a top stud in the form of an acorn.
    5. Quillon block. The block is quite elegant and is decorated on both sides with a wild boar's head.
    6. Quillon finials. The quillon block finials are in the form of animal fore legs and hooves.
    7. Clam shell guard. The guard is of a form common to this type of weapon and comprises a fluted shell.
    8. Serial numbers. None found on the hilt. Blade serially numbered.
    9. Hilt finish. Gided brass.


    BLADE

    1. Finish. Natural polished steel. The ricasso, in addition to the manufacturer's logo also bears an impressed serial number "422".
    2. Etch. Very elegant and high quality featuring:
    2a. Obverse: A mountain goat and the inscription "Waidmannsheil", "Good Hunting"??
    2b. Reverse: A bird and the inscription "Waidmannsdank", ??.
    3. Style. The bade on this weapon is of the short, broard pattern and without fullers.


    SCABBARD

    1. Body. Manufactured in black leather.
    2. Chape. Plain with banding and a flat base.
    3. Locket. Plain with a frog stud in the form of an acorn.
    4. Scabbard finish. Gilded brass.


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  3. #12

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    ITEM 06 Fire Service Officer's Dagger.


    Manufactured by the ubiquitous firm of Carl Eickhorn, the trademark on this particular weapon is an acid etched squirrel grasping a sword, point down and surmounted by the word “Original”. Below the squirrel are the words “Eickhorn Solingen”. Not withstanding some minor amendments to the pommel design, the dagger remained in service both as a Prussian then a National Fire Service dress weapon from its introduction in 1870, through the Weimar Republic and well into the TR period. Superseded by a plain hilted sabre, itself superseded by the Police pattern sword or degen in 1938, the dagger design was never amended to incorporate a swastika. The Fire Service Officer’s dagger was a relatively long and elegant weapon with an overall length of circa nineteen inches or 49cm. I have heard mention of a gold coloured version of this dagger, presumably for very senior officers or possibly marine fire service personnel, but have never seen one illustrated?


    HILT

    1. Grip. The grip is of leather clad wood with a very fine silver wire wrap.
    2. Grip insignia. Not a feature on this weapon.
    3. Knuckle bow. Not a feature on this weapon.
    4. Pommel. The pommel on this weapon is in the form of an urn shaped finial with four foliage patterned semi circular panels and a small spherical cap through which the tang of the blade is secured by peening.
    5. Quillon block. The block, in the form of a horizontal rectangular centre features, on its obverse, an old style fire helmet superimposed over a pair of crossed fire axes. The reverse shows a plain outlined block.
    6. Quillon finials. The quillon block terminals are in the form flat trefoiled finials.
    7. Clam shell guard. Not a feature on this weapon.
    8. Serial numbers. None found.
    9. Hilt finish. High quality polished nickel.


    BLADE

    1. Finish. Plated steel.
    2. Etch. Very fine, elegant and of high quality, featuring a variety items of fire fighting equipment and foliage.
    3. Style. The bade on this weapon is of diamond section pattern and without fullers.


    SCABBARD

    1. Body. Manufactured in black leather.
    2. Chape. Plain with banding and a flat base.
    3. Locket. Plain with banding and two suspension rings.
    4. Scabbard finish. High quality polished nickel.



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  4. #13

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    ITEM 07. Deutsche Rote Kreuz (DRK) German Red Cross Officer's Dagger.

    The DRK Dagger for Officers of the German Red Cross was a purely dress side arm introduced in 1938 and as such was not subject to the restrictions of the rules of the International Red Cross with regard to the style of its blade. Although not ownership nor identification number marked, the weapon was provided by the central organisation of the DRK and could not be legitimately purchased nor acquired by none Qualified DRK personnel. Although often seen with an attached knot, apparently, there was no specific style of knot authorised for wear with the dagger.

    There were two minor variations of the dagger, these being the colour of the grip and the shape of the scabbard suspension lug holes. Whilst the colour was probably only a matter of preference, the lug holes have been the subject of some speculation. The holes are encountered as both circular and rectangular. It has been suggested, that as there are two distinct patterns of suspension straps, Medical Officer and Social Welfare Officer, that the style of hole is also relative to the wearer’s specific discipline. Another theory is that the holes in the lugs are purely a manufacturer’s variation. In all honesty, I do not know, so if you have a theory, please feel free to post it on the Forum.

    As is the norm, there are no manufacturer’s logos nor details shown on the ricasso of the blade.


    HILT

    1. Grip. The grip is of orange plastic with a series of horizontal ridges.
    2. Grip insignia. Not a feature on the weapon.
    3. Knuckle bow. Not a feature on this weapon.
    4. Pommel. The pommel on this weapon is in the form of an oval metal cap through which the blade tang is inserted. The hilt assembly is secured directly to the blade tang by means of a hidden brass circular nut. Covering the tang end and nut is a slotted cap which screws into a recess in the pommel.
    5. Quillon block. The block, which incorporates langets, is quite plain but elegant and terminates in rounded ends. The obverse langet is in the form of a vertical outlined oval encompassing a National Eagle unique to the DRK but similar in style to a Military Eagle. The Eagle, looking to its right, has a raised swastika on its chest and is clutching the symbol of the IRC in the form of a plain cross. The reverse langet identical in shape but devoid of a central device.
    6. Quillon finials. Not a feature on this weapon.
    7. Clam shell guard. Not a feature on this weapon.
    8. Serial numbers. None found.
    9. Hilt finish. Matt finish nickel plating.


    BLADE

    1. Finish. Plated steel.
    2. Etch. Not a feature on this weapon.
    3. Style. The blade on this weapon is of diamond section and without fullers.


    SCABBARD

    1. Body. Manufactured in stippled steel with two scabbard bands and attached suspension lugs with circular holes.
    2. Chape. Plain in the form of a stylised cap and with a pointed base.
    3. Locket. Not a feature on this weapon.
    4. Scabbard finish. Matt finish nickel plating.



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  5. #14

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    ITEM 08. Deutsche Rote Kreuz (DRK) German Red Cross Officer's Dagger.

    Although ostensibly identical to the DRK Dagger detailed at Item 7 this weapon has a number of manufacturing variations most of which are not significant enough to be seen without a detailed inspection. The one major variation is in the suspension lugs. Unlike the above mentioned dagger this item features the alternative rectangular suspension holes in the lugs as detailed in the second paragraph of the above dagger.

    Additionally, the reverse langet features a stamped serial number “4”.


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  6. #15

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    ITEM 09. Deutsche Rote Kreuz (DRK) German Red Cross Haumesser Hewing Knife.

    The DRK Hewer for non-commissioned ranks of the German Red Cross was supposedly issued as a utilitarian knife and not a sidearm. It was introduced in 1938 and as such was subject to the restrictions of the rules of the International Red Cross with regard to the style of its blade which has a chisel or screw drive type end. Although not ownership nor identification number marked, the knife was provided by the central organisation of the DRK and could not be legitimately purchased nor acquired by non-qualified people. Apparently, there was no specific style of knot authorised for wear with the knife.

    Some time ago, I saw one of these knives displayed in a museum under the title “German Field Amputation Knife”. Personally, I would question the assumption that this was indeed a “Field Use” knife even though in appearance it looks sturdy and utilitarian. The blade looks functional but un-sharpened and strong however, the hilt is a single casting in a metal alloy and subject to shattering if roughly handled as can be seen in the lower photographs. The blade tang does not support the hilt as it terminates below the pommel creating an inherent hilt weakness immediately below the pommel. This can be clearly seen in photograph 8 which shows the inner areas of the pommel and the position of the initial break. Ergo, in my opinion, the knife was not designed for heavy duty field use but as a walking out accoutrement similar to the military walking out KS98. If it was meant to be utilitarian I would suggest that the hilt assembly would have been manufactured in a metal not prone to crack or shatter such as steel or brass and that the tang would support the whole hilt by being attached directly to the blade tang??? Your opinions are more than welcome!!

    As is the norm, there are no manufacturer’s logos nor details shown on the ricasso of the blade. However, the blade is stamped “Ges Gesch.”


    HILT

    1. Grip. The grip comprises a pair of black plastic slabs secured by a pair of silver machine bolts. The obverse slab is hatched whilst the reverse slab is smooth, both attached to a cast, probably zinc, metal alloy hilt. Both slabs are internally marked "11".
    2. Grip insignia. Not a feature on the weapon.
    3. Knuckle bow. Not a feature on this weapon.
    4. Pommel. The pommel on this knife is an integral part of the casting of the grip assembly but is not connected to the blade tang, thus significantly weakening the overall strength of the item.
    5. Quillon block. The block, which incorporates langets, is quite plain but elegant and terminates in rounded ends with the addition of lugs. As with the pommel, the quillon block is also part of the cast hilt assembly. The obverse langet is in the form of a vertical outlined oval encompassing a National Eagle unique to the DRK but similar in style to a Military Eagle. The Eagle, looking to its right, has a raised swastika on its chest and is clutching the symbol of the IRC in the form of a plain cross. The reverse langet is identical in shape but devoid of a central device.
    6. Quillon finials. Not a feature on this weapon.
    7. Clam shell guard. Not a feature on this weapon.
    8. Serial numbers. None found.
    9. Hilt finish. Matt finish nickel plating.


    BLADE

    1. Finish. Plated steel.
    2. Etch. Not a feature on this weapon.
    3. Style. The blade on this hewer is of a style not dissimilar to a bayonet with a wide blade. It has single full size fullers, a saw tooth back edge, an unsharpened cutting edge and chisel shaped tip. There appear to be no markings of any type on the blade tang. However, the lower part of the tang can not be seen.


    SCABBARD

    1. Body. Manufactured in steel with a frog stud centred on the upper body.
    2. Chape. Plain in the form of a cap with a rounded base.
    3. Locket. Plain with banding and quite narrow.
    4. Scabbard finish. Gloss black enamelled body with chape and locket finish in matt nickel plating.


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  7. #16
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    Thx Micheal for showing.
    I have made a post about these DRK hewers and its identification.
    Your broken down Luneschloss, does it have any markings on the gripplates or frame?
    Klaas used his cranes logo on the frame and gripplates, but i cant find any on yours, so i most be luneschloss or Eickhorn.
    The fact is that Eickhorn also has a DRK hewer in his cataloque and i was wondering if any related logo/marking points out to eather Luneschloss or Eickhorn.....it still isnt clear if Eickhorn distributed them only, or produced them ( buy them from luneschloss? therefore no Logo's?)
    At least Klaas ( with the lower scabbard fitting sidescrew config) marked the inside of his DRK hewers properly.
    I would like to use your pics for my DRK hewer post, so if you dont mind?

    Regards,
    Ger

  8. #17

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    Hi Ger, Thank you for your message. I went over the tang with a magnifying glass but found nothing. However there is part of the tang that I can not get at so there may be something under there? I did not think to look at the hilt casting but I will today. Both grip slabs have "11" marking to their reverses but nothing else. With regard to using the photos, please feel free. As a matter of interest to me and probably others, do you agree with my comments on this knife? As a knowledgable collector, I would appreciate your thoughts and comments.

    Hope that you and your family have a good and happy Christmas!!

    Cheers Michael R

  9. #18
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    Michael here the link to my post, it will add a little info for you.
    DRK Hauer facts, true or false?

    Thanks for the good wishes, and may i return them to your family as well?
    All is well here.....hope you do no less!
    You've made a lovely post, keep on the good work!

    i was hoping on a Eick or Lunes.. marking...pity it aint

    Regards Ger

  10. #19

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    Beautiful daggers Ryan as usually,a specially the Weyersberg Hirschfanger, that's rare beast etch,i love it.
    The Red Cross hewer made only Klaas and Luneschloss IMO.
    Never heard on Eickhorn or any other maker to make these, but everything is possible.

  11. #20

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    Michael,

    You've commenced a wonderfully informative thread, I look forwad to seeing more of the beautiful examples in your collection.

    With respect to your Fire Official's dagger, can you show a picture of how the etched logo is oriented on the blade ricasso?

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