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Recent rescue 2 daggers & bayonet

Article about: Herder used two logos. I don't think it has been determined which was the first. Herder only made daggers in the mid to late periods. The very first production can be found with silver plati

  1. #1
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    I moved these posts to its own thread as I was advised and for good reason that the information contained here should have its own thread. Regards Larry

    I rescued these about a month ago...
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    Last edited by Larry C; 11-11-2012 at 04:50 AM.

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    Nice rescue Fbeaty!!! and all in great condition! Did you acquire these from a Vet or at a gun and knife show? I like your SA dagger the best although it is in the middle of a rarity scale that maker made and sent their daggers soley to Gau Franken. Which is the "Fr" stands for on the lower crossguard. IMO it is a rare maker. Overall all 3 are in great condition, Thanks for sharing and adding to the collection thread Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  4. #3
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    I got them from a fellow who bought them from a estate sale...not at a gun show. A couple of hundred for the lot. I am always looking

  5. #4
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    Gau Franken, what's the significance? Is there any sites that give more info on daggers?

  6. #5

    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    No significance,, just a nuance with me when collecting these types. I like the SAs. What questions do you have on daggers as we have a very qualified group in collecting the various types of edged weapons?
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    Well, I am looking at age...early types vs. lateer version. Rich.A.Herder(officer dagger) I was told that this is the early maker marker...when did it change? So I can then get an idea what years it was made. Fritz Barthelmess(fr)Bavaria, is this maker mark 1933-1936? I was looking last night on the web...and it appears RZM took over sometime. Is it better made before RZM took over? Better steal blades? Fr being Hauptstadt der Bewegung...is that why Fritz B exclusively sold to Gau Franken. And the rarity of them. I am not trying to get a quote on price, but I picked them(lot) up for a couple hundred dollars. My first for purchase of daggers.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    A bunch of great questions which I am hopeful others reading this will chime in!....First,,The RZM did not affect non political daggers,,,,The SA SS HJ NSKK...these were political organizations which The RZM had control over,, which started in 1934 with steel production dagger blades. Originally the RZM goes as far back as 1925-28,,but did not come into full swing until 1934,,,only with dagger blades. Three SS makers 120/34 & 121/34 & 188/35,, are the only makers that did not have the original logo of the maker along side the RZM control number. This was the beginning and there is no known documentation of the identity of these 3 makers. The craftmanship is there of the early period. By 1936 the ( transitional period ) meaning the makers logo and RZM combination was being used. Most producers IMO hated this move as their own logo was the only source of identity of that firms craftmanship. Still the craftmanship was present and these transitionals were made great. This applies to the SA SS and NSKK only,, the HJ was metal and plastic construction.
    By 1939 as for economic reasons,, the materials used for the remaining producers began to lack in quality as seen with plating chipping and lifting,, the blade was lighter and the choice of wood on the grips were less superior. There are those who like to collect late SAs as it is an SA. My opinion the SA at that late period in time was only a functionary group,, for parades and state functions. The SS totally taken over in all areas of security so the SA was obsolete IMO by that time. The early period of struggle is the most intriguing for Hitlers grasp of power,, so those SA and SS daggers during that time were desirable because of the History and craftmanship.

    #2 ) the SA gruppe mark was not a designation of daggers being sold to,, The daggers were bought by the SA high command and the SA decided where those daggers were needed. it seems as though that Fritz B. was the sole manufacturer of that Gau district.
    Rarity is deemed as how many were produced as the smaller makers might of made a few thousand daggers,, compared to the larger makers into the millions or less.
    I forgot to add as alot of SA makers dropped out of production because of the stress of material cost and loss of identity. Most hard hit were the Cottage makers. Although they were given an RZM number some of those small makers never produced after that.

    So for a couple of hundred dollars you did well as the total price for the grouping could well be $2000. Just my estimate because of condition. I hope I was able to answer some questions but I would find it favorable to hear from others on their thoughts on the Heer and bayonet. Best regards Larry

    Here is a link to this forums list of SA gruppe marks.....SA Dienstdolch group markings
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    Great info...and yes I think the couple hundred was a great deal for me. Considering the possible value. I am a bargine WWII amature collector...garage sales, vets...selling thier old collections. I will add some more pics for better viewing pleasures. Any thoughts on the officer dagger? I guess the bayonet is a dime a dozen...

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  10. #9
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    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    Sorry for slipping helmet in...done by mistake...

  11. #10

    Default Re: Finest Collections from the Finest of collectors

    The Heer dagger is correct in all aspects and it is in great condition. Rare to see the herder maker logo,, so that is a nice find. The hangers are correct along with the Knot. Your German helmet would be best posted in the Steel Helmet forum as those guys there have "Hawk eyes" and will give you the best assessment on its origins and originality. The Heer dagger alone with all its accoutrements easily over $1000,,which the rarity of the maker puts it in that category. Nice !
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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