importance background object?

[Colin]

this is what i'm trying to get clear for a long time:

how important is the background of an object???

like say, i've got me some items that are to relate to one and no other batallion, what does this do with the estimated worth of that object? does it make a significant difference?

for instance, a headlight of a scoutcar, a quite common object.
but what if this light comes from a spot where only and no others than the britisch 7th armoured division (= famous desert rats) came through, which is also subscribed by related object?

[Mark K]

Said providence of an item can most definatley help in it's resale value there is an old saying amongst collectors <dont buy the story buy the item> what this means to you as a seller if you are going to attach providence to an item for resale you have to be able to back up it's history with valid evidence ie... photos and or documentation for the item to be taken seriously other wise it should be looked at no different than any other item that is the same with out providence.

Regards Mark K

[Colin]

so well thinking that can only be definite with some kind of mark on the item itself!??
if something is found on a spot of which info is to be found, than it should still mean nothing? or will coordinates with backgroundinformation do?

[Mark K]

As an example we will use the headlight from the scoutcar beyond your word as a seller what other way would you back up your claim that this headlight came from a vehicle of the British 7th Armored corps serving in Africa remember you need to be able to prove that particular item was there. So if it has a serial number can you place it on a certain vehicle that was used there <documentation> or say it has a certain mark or distinguishing feature that could be used to help identify it from period photos .Look at it this way if I offered to sell you an item that I claimed was in Hitlers Bunker at the end of the war would you just take my word or would you want evidence that it was really there during this time.

By the way welcome to the forum

Regards Mark K

[GIZMO8Z]

Said providence of an item can most definatley help in it's resale value there is an old saying amongst collectors <dont buy the story buy the item> what this means to you as a seller if you are going to attach providence to an item for resale you have to be able to back up it's history with valid evidence ie... photos and or documentation for the item to be taken seriously other wise it should be looked at no different than any other item that is the same with out providence.

Regards Mark K

Mark hit it square on the nose... you really can't explain it any better way!

You also have to remember that as time passes, the individuals who took these items as war tropheys are passing away. Most of these veterans no longer remain to tell their stories... As such, so many war relics are being thrown out, sold at tag sales, sold to antique shops, and bought and sold on the open market. The farther away an item gets from it's origin, the more obscure it's background story gets. The majority of militaria just doesn't have background stories to go along with them anymore. Beyond that, if you look on ebay or go to a militaria fair, sooooooo many vendors will insist that their items came from the Battle of Stalingrad, or the Battle of Berlin, etc. so they'll boost up their prices in order to take advantage of buyers. LIES!

With that being said, who wouldn't want a relic that has a 100% clear history? I know for damn sure I'd love to have a relic from Stalingrad or Berlin!

As an example, I recently was given a Japanese Type 90 helmet with camo net that is in great condition. As is, the helmet would be worth $1,000 U.S.D. The person who gave me the helmet also provided me with verbal information, AND individual service records and a medal grouping from the U.S. sailor (his father-in-law) who took the helmet as a war trophey. The documentation nails the helmet down as being taken from the Battle of Iwo Jima. I never plan to sell the helmet, but I've gotten offers for $3,000 and $5,000 U.S.D. for the helmet.

[Colin]

at first, i'm not discussing, nono, i'm looking for answers.
i like it to talk clear, an appreciate clear reactions in return
questions and answers not to value in money, but it's collectable value.

Mark hit it square on the nose... you really can't explain it any better way!

the answers are clear, so my thanks and compliments to for the way i get my question answered, by all of you

As an example, I recently was given a Japanese Type 90 helmet with camo net that is in great condition. As is, the helmet would be worth $1,000 U.S.D. The person who gave me the helmet also provided me with verbal information, AND individual service records and a medal grouping from the U.S. sailor (his father-in-law) who took the helmet as a war trophey. The documentation nails the helmet down as being taken from the Battle of Iwo Jima. I never plan to sell the helmet, but I've gotten offers for $3,000 and $5,000 U.S.D. for the helmet.

but even in the story above there stil is no harder evidence than "as said", like in this case the U.S. Sailer (which i believe btw).

why am i saying this?
i can give the same background on an item.

As an example we will use the headlight from the scoutcar beyond your word as a seller what other way would you back up your claim that this headlight came from a vehicle of the British 7th Armored corps serving in Africa remember you need to be able to prove that particular item was there.

indeed, let's take the light for excample

i can provide documentation of an particular oparation during the liberation of europe.
i can build that up with maps of the route followed just as to read in the documentation, the divisions who took action on exact which routes. even can provide pictures took during liberation, of the devision and the vehicles.
the 7th armoured devision was there too. they took a route no one else took, in even an area no other vehicled devisions came through. a route at places no other vehicles passed before or afther.
documentation in which is spoken of mines, which explanes the loss by damage.

and right on spots in that route i've found several related items not to relate to any other divisions.
it is even backwards. the documentation did not came to the objects. the objects were found thanks to the documentation, research
but the only posible "but" in the evidence is as in the story above, "as said".
by me, because i know the exact coordinates, and i know that i've realy found it overthere.

for me it is 200% clear, so i'm happy eitherway
but no serialnrs, no devisionstamps.

so how hard is a background like that? or is it not hard enough?

Attachment 272939

[GIZMO8Z]

Hi Colin,

I think we may have a language barrier here, but I'm finding it hard to understand exactly what you mean... you say you're not talking about money, but in your original post, you mention worth, which can easily be confused with monetary value. What do you mean by collectible value? Whether or not an item is collectible is in the eye of the beholder... someone may collect belly button lint, and 99.9999999999% of the world considers that rubbish... but it's still "valuable" to that weird belly button lint collector!

but even in the story above there stil is no harder evidence than "as said", like in this case the U.S. Sailer (which i believe btw).

There is an official U.S. Government service record document (which states that the sailor only participated in the Iwo Jima operation) and a medal grouping. Beyond that, I got the helmet from the sailor's son-in-law, which I could prove with marriage records. That's about as solid as evidence gets in my opinion, short of having a period picture taken of the sailor with the helmet standing ontop of Mt. Suribachi.

because i know the exact coordinates, and i know that i've realy found it overthere.

for me it is 200% clear, so i'm happy eitherway
but no serialnrs, no devisionstamps.

so how hard is a background like that? or is it not hard enough?

Attachment 272939

If you truly found that headlight casing in an area where only The Desert Rats had been, and you're 100% no other troops had been through that area, and you're 100% happy with that, that's all you need! The only other thing I could think of would be somehow proving that you yourself were at that exact spot in Africa where you found the casing. If you're 200% sure, why would you need better proof unless you're interested in marketing the headlight casing for sale as a headlight casing from a Desert Rat vehicle and you need to prove it to the buyer?

[Battery Command Post]

this is what i'm trying to get clear for a long time:

how important is the background of an object???

like say, i've got me some items that are to relate to one and no other batallion, what does this do with the estimated worth of that object? does it make a significant difference?

for instance, a headlight of a scoutcar, a quite common object.
but what if this light comes from a spot where only and no others than the britisch 7th armoured division (= famous desert rats) came through, which is also subscribed by related object?

First thing you would have to do is definitely identify the make and model of the lamp, and exactly which vehicles they were fitted to. If a lamp is the type fitted to their vehicles by Fiat, or Horch, or Chevrolet then you can ID the vehicle.

The problem with geographical location for me is the 70 odd years since the Desert Rats left. Between then and 2011 lots of people could have been through there, dumping all kinds of things. So I would say you need to identify the lamp, identify the vehicle types it was used with, and with this and a geographocal location, that would be proof enough.

Rob

[Colin]

@GIZMO8Z
could be that i use the wrong words. i don't have a degree in english.

what i mean is emotional value.
to me these items indeed do have emotional value eitherway.
but my question is what about this emotional value means in therms of collecting and other collectors. that's what i called: collactable value.

a unnumbered hat is of less collectable (emotional!) value than the hat of General Eisenhower himself, even if it would be the same type of hat. first one would be laying around between the rest, while that of Gen. Eisenhower would get een prominent honorable place.

btw: i'm talking about the 7th during european liberation. not found in africa.

First thing you would have to do is definitely identify the make and model of the lamp, and exactly which vehicles they were fitted to. If a lamp is the type fitted to their vehicles by Fiat, or Horch, or Chevrolet then you can ID the vehicle.

thanks rob
i've found pictures of the used vehicles which have exactly these lights. different kind of vehicles, on some used as headlight, on some as searchlight. this type of lights is used on more than one type off vehicles (done research on that).

The problem with geographical location for me is the 70 odd years since the Desert Rats left. Between then and 2011 lots of people could have been through there, dumping all kinds of things. So I would say you need to identify the lamp, identify the vehicle types it was used with, and with this and a geographocal location, that would be proof enough.

Rob

there you've got a point
but , i've found more objects, apart and spread over an area. even from different types of vehicles, but all from that devision.
found these between others stuff like casings.
as far as i've found pieces of evidence i've got a quite good insight on how the fronts where (allied, and german objects).
and it is a place where there's hardly civilian activity. not a place where civilians wil ride in militairy vehicles (not by farmers or re-enacters or whatever). not a place to dump rubbish.

[Battery Command Post]

@GIZMO8Z
could be that i use the wrong words. i don't have a degree in english.

No problem, i think i understand what you mean

a unnumbered hat is of less collectable (emotional!) value than the hat of General Eisenhower himself, even if it would be the same type of hat. first one would be laying around between the rest, while that of Gen. Eisenhower would get een prominent honorable place.

That's not necessarily true. This goes back to what GIZMO8Z was saying earlier in this thread. It really depends on the collector what stirs emotions and what doesn't. For me personally, a thing like the SS uniform jacket of a Knight's Cross winner would pretty much leave me cold (a nice thing but it doesn't interest me in terms of collecting) but if you found, say, an original named jacket from an ordinary Gunner in a British or Canadian artillery regiment I might get excited, because thats something that interests me, especially if it had some rarer regimental insignia too. Monetary value has nothing to do with it. I don't collect US items either, so Eisenhower's hat wouldn't appeal to me much. For a lot of collectors, that place of honour in their collections is very often their uncle or great-grandfather's medals or hat or whatever, because it really stirs personal emotions, even though it's actual value is probably very little.

i've found pictures of the used vehicles which have exactly these lights. different kind of vehicles, on some used as headlight, on some as searchlight. this type of lights is used on more than one type off vehicles (done research on that).

Cool, so it looks to me like you have carried out research, and have established the best provenance for the item that you can... that's all you can do.

By the way, it looks like the headlight from an American vehicle to me (for example an M3 Lee or Grant Tank) but I can't really tell properly from your photo.

Rob