SS Komandant living in Minesota since 1949, JA?

**Chopperman** · 06-15-2013, 03:11 PM

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
When he entered the US he claimed he had no military experience.
Yet he wrote in his memoir that he help form the Ukrainian Self Defense League.

If it is true, that is not something I would brag about.

**DougB** · 06-15-2013, 03:24 PM

All they say is he lied on his entry form. If they deported all immigrants in the US for lying on their applications the US would be empty. Hell, you don't even have to apply anymore, just enter illegally and you get all the benefits of being born there.

Real journalism would have him linked unequivocally to atrocities, not write in general terms about atrocities.

As the father of a son who was wrongly accused of something he did not commit (and was exonerated - with prejudice - in court and loved seeing the prosecutor get the dressing down of his life by the judge, and the policewoman who charged him getting suspended charged herself for making false charges in another case) I have zero tolerance for Trial By Media and the allegorical way in which articles such as this are written, and the judgement people with zero knowledge of the actual events make.

This is a bullshit world we live in.

If the fellow committed crimes against humanity he deserves what he gets, until then our cozy comfortable world is completely out of context to judge events and the man from the Ukraine where the Soviets starved millions to death in the 30's and was then front and center of the most brutal modern war known to man.

**Larry C** · 06-15-2013, 03:47 PM

by DougB

If they deported all immigrants in the US for lying on their applications the US would be empty. .

That pretty much sums it up

Who didnt lie trying to escape a corrupt country or for a better life. The Mariel Boat lift of 1980 was one such instance of letting Cuban exiles mostly released jail inmates and insane asylum individuals...I wonder if they told the truth when entering. ....Im not a fan of criminals.....yet in modern times this is allowed to happen. Im still amazed at how Murderers,,like..Ernesto "Che" Guevara..of Cuba,... Mao of China..and a few other personalities are alowed to be adorned on Tshirts being sold in stores for the youth to wear. Most of the youth have no clue of these individulas background..but yet They think it is a fashion statement..because it is being sold in clothing stores....revolutionaries and killers on T shirts....but lets have a witch hunt of 90 yr old "ASSUMED" ......Nazi SS men...(( I even hated to say it in that phrase too ))...that are found guilty because they are German. Italians that were in Mussolinis SS..what about them?...The Japanese with their death marches and torture they applied to weakened prisoners......all pardoned.......The Russians and Stalin..the list goes on........

Yep...lets just turn a blind eye on the failures of today..and direct more of a focus on the past..when all what is evil now is happening in the present

**Frundsberg** · 06-15-2013, 03:57 PM

Well - OUN was a terrorist organization? Maybe really it was according to our "modern" standards. I personally belive that every man or woman who fought against communists did the right job. And there is no need to call these people "nazies" - for example in the Ukraine millions starved to death in 1930-ies due to the communist regime. So no wonder many joined German army in 1941.

As some of You say - they were traitors of the Fatherland. May I ask - what Fatherland? Occupied Ukraine? Communist party? USSR? Belive me - many people from the Western Ukraine were very strongly against communists and still are. The only thing they wanted was free Ukraine, nothing more or less.

**meyle77** · 06-15-2013, 08:51 PM

OUN was formed in 1929 and before 1939 actively fought against Polish government in so-called western ukraine - Kresy. Not many actions took place against communists before 1941, but mainly against Poles and the Polish State. Holodomor took place only in soviet ukraine and not in Poland. OUN's hope for a free state under TR was really far fetched and Germans used OUN and then Galizien division as cannon fodder. Let's no forget OUN / UPA involvement in murder of thousands of Poles and Ukrainians along with Jews in Wolyn as well as their post-war activities in southern Poland. Really far from being freedom fighters if you ask me. The men in question is not a real soldier but a war criminal that was used to do dirty work by the Germans.

**Frundsberg** · 06-16-2013, 09:53 AM

Well, every stick has 2 ends:-). If You are from Poland, OUN is a terrorist organization. If You are from the Western-Ukraine, OUN members are heroes who fought for the right to have independence and Polish rule was for them like German occupation in Poland. I do not belive anyone will say that Armia Krajowa was a terrorist group. Because these brave people fought against occupants (Germans) and did the right thing.

History of the OUN is very interesting. Of course they were no angels and sadly - many awful things happened. Today we call these crimes commited by German troops or OUN warcrimes. But when very similar crimes were commited by the Tito bandits or by red Czechs after WWII was already ended - these people are not war criminals but war heroes and still walk for free and get benefits from the state...

I have promised not to write any comments about the Holocaust or about the jewish people. So I just will post some information about the OUN and jews from Wikipedia:

"Once the OUN was at war with Germany, such instances lessened and finally stopped. An underground OUN publication in 1943 condemned "German racism, which carried anthropological nonsense to the absurd." In the official organ of the OUN-B's leadership, instructions to OUN groups urged those groups to "liquidate the manifestations of harmful foreign influence, particularly the German racist concepts and practices." There were many cases of Jews having been sheltered from the Nazis by the OUN-B's military wing UPA and Jews fought in the ranks of UPA . Finally, the 3rd OUN Congress held in August 1943 proclaimed equal rights to all minorities inhabiting Ukraine. The OUN position concerning the Jews was disseminated through its IDEIA I CHYN clandestine journal, and it specifically asked for resistance to manifestations of Antisemitism."

**meyle77** · 06-16-2013, 08:25 PM

by Frundsberg

Well, every stick has 2 ends:-). If You are from Poland, OUN is a terrorist organization. If You are from the Western-Ukraine, OUN members are heroes who fought for the right to have independence and Polish rule was for them like German occupation in Poland. I do not belive anyone will say that Armia Krajowa was a terrorist group. Because these brave people fought against occupants (Germans) and did the right thing.

History of the OUN is very interesting. Of course they were no angels and sadly - many awful things happened. Today we call these crimes commited by German troops or OUN warcrimes. But when very similar crimes were commited by the Tito bandits or by red Czechs after WWII was already ended - these people are not war criminals but war heroes and still walk for free and get benefits from the state...

I have promised not to write any comments about the Holocaust or about the jewish people. So I just will post some information about the OUN and jews from Wikipedia:

"Once the OUN was at war with Germany, such instances lessened and finally stopped. An underground OUN publication in 1943 condemned "German racism, which carried anthropological nonsense to the absurd." In the official organ of the OUN-B's leadership, instructions to OUN groups urged those groups to "liquidate the manifestations of harmful foreign influence, particularly the German racist concepts and practices." There were many cases of Jews having been sheltered from the Nazis by the OUN-B's military wing UPA and Jews fought in the ranks of UPA . Finally, the 3rd OUN Congress held in August 1943 proclaimed equal rights to all minorities inhabiting Ukraine. The OUN position concerning the Jews was disseminated through its IDEIA I CHYN clandestine journal, and it specifically asked for resistance to manifestations of Antisemitism."

I agree, but OUN and their actions in general would be considered criminal in any sense as they killed all who were against them including their own. Their murder of Poles in Wolyn was genocide, still not fully acknowledged by the Ukrainian government.
None of that can be said about Armia Krajowa, being controlled by the Government in Exile.
I think the discussion about OUN could be on their own interesting and controversial so let's not go there :-)

**DougB** · 06-16-2013, 09:04 PM

Agreed, discussions like this tend to go off the rails.

For my point the trial of this man should be in a courtroom with documentary evidence provided placing him in a position to create these orders. The Nuremberg trials are the standard to which this should be held, not trial by public opinion.

**meyle77** · 06-16-2013, 09:06 PM

Every person deserves a proper trial if accused of something - allegiance to an organization doesn't automatically means he is guilty of crimes.

**drmessimer** · 06-24-2013, 02:13 PM

This is an interesting thread that highlights the reality, as Frundsberg put it, "every stick has two ends." As for a "fair trial" in open court, in Germany today, any officer (the term officer is specificially used to differentiate from enlisted man) who was a member of a unit that committed war crimes, as determined by the victors, can be tried, convicted, and sentenced even though the officer was not directly involved in the action itself. Simply being a member of the unit in any capacity is sufficient to constitute guilt. Dwight