Why does the Third Reich attract so many collectors?

[drmessimer]

sunsetIE: That is an interesting post and a good example of liberal narrow-mindedness when it comes to anything dealing with the Third Reich. According to liberal conventional wisdom, Hitler and the NSDAP represent the ultimate evil of all time, ignoring entirely the excesses of Joe Stalin and a host of others like idi Amin and Pot Pohl. The Nazis were pretty awful in several ways, but they aren't the record holders that many make them out to be. I have no problem with people being appalled by Nazi excesses, but as a historian I would like to see the Third Reich put into historical context rather than be used as the universal symbol of all that's evil. That sort of overboard generalization stifles intellectual inquiry and discussion about the period.
By-the-way, in your search for information on the 907th Air Engineering Squadron, have you contacted the AF Historical Center at Maxwell AFB? Here is a linnk to their site. www.afhra.af.mil Thanks for the post. Dwight

[Scout]

There is no debating nor excusing the crimes comitted during and by the TR, but I'm simply astounded how easy it has been for a generations of European liberal/leftie politicians/teachers/the powers that be, to somehow skate over the insane terror regime, that was the USSR (and the others mentioned as well; Amin, Pol Pot etc).
I'm amazed and insulted when work mates come to work in 'revolutionary chick' hammer & sickle T-shirts.
Usually, I dont say anything, as the vast majority just look at you with that bovine stare, when you try to explain about Katyn, the Gulags, the prolonged terror etc, but one time I just had to react and asked the wearer of said T-shirt, how he would feel if he saw a workmate with a swastika shirt or SS runes.
I blew this up to a considerable size and hung it over my work station in the bull pen:

[Larry C]

Dwight you hit the nail on the head,, I could not of said that one line any better in regards to this time period and the hobby itself.
( quote) That is an interesting post and a good example of liberal narrow-mindedness when it comes to anything dealing with the Third Reich. ( end quote )
Its this type of thinking being taught in schools,, that is stealing what was once free. Those same liberal thinkers were the same bunch that created that slogan from long ago " "A mind is a terrible thing to waste"!! and cried foul that not many of the young people were being left behind that could not afford education,, now these same thinkers are doing the exact opposite in which the youth now have to many censors and are only allowed to read what is thought good for them. History in schools is almost history itself!! Those of us who have an interest in historical time periods are chosen,, not because it looks cool,, but an inner desire to know more and the many reasons why times and instances happened the way they did. I applaud the young people that are in school,, as I do with member Sunset!! Keep up the good work!! and to Dwight a most excellent thread. Best regards Larry

[Uncle Paul]

It is not just a matter of the Third Reich attracting collectors and historians, here in the United States its appeal is much broader. On television, the Military Channel airs documentaries concerning the Third Reich virtually every day, and has done so for years. Books and movies about the Second World War keep coming out, and it's the rare Hollywood star who has not yet appeared in a snappy German uniform. Contemporary American troops wear helmets resembling German helmets. Skinheads, outlaws, and members of the Aryan Brotherhood have made the swastika part of their regalia. The war in Europe ended almost 70 years ago and yet the presence of the Third Reich is with us still. Could it be that our part in defeating the Nazis is something we recognize as unequivocally good, and that we keep replaying this period in our history to reassure ourselves that we are still virtuous? Or is it something else? What do you think?

[drmessimer]

Larry: Thanks for the compliment. When you wrote, "History in schools is almost history itself!!" you are right. The study of how history is treated--altered, presented, argued, condemned, etc.--is called historiography. This forum is not the place to go into the historiography of the Third Reich, but I assure you that it's an interesting study and one that would raise your feeling of frustration to levels that you can't imagine. There is so much that we can't say today for fear of being labeled an extremist or worse. Thanks for the post. Dwight

Uncle Paul: I think that when you wrote, "Could it be that our part in defeating the Nazis is something we recognize as unequivocally good, and that we keep replaying this period in our history to reassure ourselves that we are still virtuous? Or is it something else? What do you think?" you touched on a point that is so obscure that were aren't even aware of it. I had never before considered that idea, nor had I ever even been aware of it, but considering it now, I think you have scored a major point. Thanks for that particularly insightful post. Dwight

Allow me to say that I try to answer every post because I started this thread to learn something. It has been very successful so far and I genuinely appreciate all of you taking your time to post an opinion or explanation. I hope many more will do the same. The fact that I respond to your posts with my own take on what you said in no way implies that I think I'm the final authority on this subject. I'm not. This forum offers an unique opportunity to learn, and that is what I'm doing now. I do appreciate you participation. Dwight

[TrondK]

I find the part of the Eastern Volunteers extremely interesting, maybe because the battle started already in the revolution in 1917, when the "whites" fought the "Reds". The ordinary German soldier is not so interesting for me, i like the exotic and sometimes weird.- These rather strange combinationes of uniforms, symbols and insignia that would leave almost every German officer with more than one grey hair on their head.
There are still things to discover in this field and everytime i find a Cossack or Volunteer tunic, i usually scratches my head when i enter the minefield of learning more of these forgotten soldiers and their tribes.

[drmessimer]

trondK: I like the way you think. An attraction to :...the exotic and sometimes weird.- These rather strange combinationes of uniforms, symbols and insignia that would leave almost every German officer with more than one grey hair on their head." is right in there with the appeal of what I call the dark side. Probably a better term would be the appeal of the rebel. Your reason is particularly interesting because, I infer, that you are refering to the eastern SS volunteers. I have to tell you, for entirely different reasons I share your interest. Actually, interest in, and attraction to, a subject is pretty closely related and probably the same thing expressed a different way. By-the-way, where are you from? Thanks for the post. Dwight

[Wagriff]

In many ways, I've wondered about the strange mystique of the Nazi era as well, and by the same nature, the almost universal despising disgust that must always be exhibited when even mentioning such matters. Is it simply politically correctness or is it something deeper? The Germans were Beaten and Totally destroyed by the end of the war. Hundreds were thrown into prisons and even more hundreds were simply shot down and killed by the winning troops. A staggering 10 Million Germans lost their lives during the conflict. One would think that such would be sufficient vengeance, but apparently not. Why, for example, Must the swastika forever be covered or hidden when picturing something that has one incorporated into it? Will simply laying eyes on it convert modern school children instantly into goose-stepping Storm Troopers? The standard response is always one of incredulous shock and to reply with such stock answers as "Well! Look at the terrible things the Nazi's did!", and, yes, they did, Indeed, do terrible things-this is Absolutely not being questioned, but why the instant over-reaction to the mere Sight of a swastika? In many countries, it is against the Law and is a Prison-able offense to speak of or display such things. Thankfully, here in the US, our laws are abit more broadly interpreted. But, to accept this reasoning that is is a symbol of a hated enemy who committed horrible crimes against humanity and therefore must never be allowed to be seen or spoken of just doesn't seem to make logical sense. There are no end to hated symbols throughout history-the Japanese Rising Sun? Graphically reminiscent of the Japanese soldiers and their katanas cutting off American prison camp inmate's heads and laughing as the headless bodies stagger about a few steps. It's still in use in Japan, I believe, and very few aside from a token number of Japanese were ever held accountable after the war-and yet today, we've devised new laws that being a mere rankless Guard in a Concentration camp makes the person personally responsible for Every single death in the entire camp. How about the Ustashi's checkered shield of Croatia? The Ustashi committed such heinous killings that they even scared the Germans, and yet the Croatian flag has changed very little to this very day. The dreaded and much hated Ku Klux Klan? Today, any school child can draw their "K" symbol with the blood drop in the center and not be sent to prison for it. So, what makes the swastika so unique? Indeed, it seems to be the only such symbol in history that has been so outlawed and banned. Certainly, the Black Shirt fascists of Italy were no Boy Scouts-they had terrible prisons and such-did awful mass executions, etc. And yet today, Mussolini statues and busts are proudly sold in the markets of Rome and beyond. Could Germans today manufacture and sell Hitler busts without immediate and dire consequences? Indeed, can Hitler's name even be mentioned at all, without the obligatory addition of "the most Evil mass murderer madman in all of Human history" immediately attached afterward to it? One almost expects the speaker to Spit immediately after speaking the name. But, Josef Stalin killed many times more millions of his own and other peoples, and no such stigmata is applied to him in the Russia of today. Chairman Mao and his mass starvation of the farmers, and other such wonderful deeds...any such revilement of Him in Peking? The Turks? For awhile, the very word "Turk" became a byword for "savage killer" and yet today, no one thinks ill of the Turks.
But, enough babbling for now. When one gets older, one begins to wonder why things are the way they are. Rather than simply accept something, you begin to look for explanations rather than simple parroting of previously stated things. If I'm going to hate someone, I want to know why. Not that it bothers me to Hate-hate is a normal human emotion, of course, but I've never been a sheep in a herd to follow unquestioned the say so of the masses. I've studied history both in college and in my private life most of my entire existence, and over the decades I've seen things change their facts that I never would have believed possible. Eventually, given enough time, the behind the scenes stories begin to leak out, numbers change-even History itself changes. WWI is a good example. "The Savage Hun!" Bestial spiked helmeted German's catching Belgian babies on their bayonets like Geronimo and his warriors. "The Evil Kaiser! Hang the Kaiser from the Siegfried Line!" Today? Does anyone care at all about old Wilhelm the 2nd? or believe half the stories anymore? I think eventually when New enemies come up, that the old ones fade away into obscurity, forgotten by all but the unknown bookish scholars who study such things and always will. It only remains to be seen if such will ever be the case with WWII. It's been nearly 70 years since then and even now facts are blurring, changing, being tangled up. Will the Hate ever fade away? While any of them still live, will Germans Ever be able to be proud of their warrior heroes who so bravely faced the machine guns of a determined enemy? It's fairly doubtful that Dr Mengele, for example, will ever be the scientific research hero he so vainly thought himself to be, but what about the Soldats and Sailors? The men in the fields fighting in countless battlefield Hells throughout Europe? Are they all to be hated forever? In the meanwhile, the fakers are frenetically hurrying out their garbage to bilk the naive collectors while there's still a nickel to be made in it, and the famous names of once Great Men are becoming no longer so. But then, that's just the way History works, I guess.

[drmessimer]

Wagriff: I am in total agreement with your views on this subject, but I warn you that those of us who hold those views and discuss them openly are wading into deeper and deeper hot water. I recall when Ebay announced that henceforth no hate-related items, or something to that effect, would be allowed, I just shook my head and wondered if those clueless fools really believe that banning symbols will make it all go away. You asked "...will Germans ever be able to be proud of their warrior heroes...?" I don't think so, at least not publicly, and certainly not in our lifetimes.
The real problem as I see it is that the history of WWII, and that includes the 1933-45 period, was been taken over by liberal intellectuals, academics, and journalists. For those people, the focus of the war is on Nazi Germany, since that part of the World War affected western society. The war in the Pacific was somewhere else. I find that both amusing and hypocritical in-as-much as those same liberal academics are today vociferous in their insistence that US History be taught without a "Euro-centric" focus. But the point is, that those liberal writers are the people who wrote, and still write, the "important" books about the war, the issues involved, and the people who fought it.
Books written with views counter to the prevailing theme are panned by reviewers and do not sell well. The best, and most recent, examples for comparison that I can cite are two books on the same general subject. The first is Christopher R. Browning's, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland (1992) which presents a balanced view of the use of regular policemen in the role of executioners. The second, by Daniel Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocast (1996), subscribes to the conventional interpretation of Germany's guilt. Whereas Browning's book received little notice, Goldhagen's book received rave reviews and became a best seller. One has only to study the historiography of WWII literature to see the prevailing attitude of knee-jerk revulsion toward all things associated with the Third Reich. The sad truth is, that having written that, I will almost certainly hear from someone accusing me of falling into the conspiracy theory trap and/or accusing me of being a "Nazi apologist." All I can say, is I might be a lot of things, but I am definitely not a Nazi apologist. I am an historian. Dwight

[Wagriff]

Sad but true, I'm afraid Dwight. Such views will likely never be accepted until the prevailing mind set is gone-which may or may not ever happen. One has only to look to History for similar examples. Today, for instance, the Huns are still viewed as horrible murderous savages, and it's been...how long now? Nearly 2 Millennia? It's unfortunate, but true that History is almost always written by the Winners. The Losers eventually morph into distorted hateful peoples that Needed to be beaten. It's always been a hope of mine-a vain one though- that Someday I would be able to read an unbiased "History of the World" that was totally neutral -one that simply reported what Happened. Think of how Fascinating that would have been. Just a recounting of what happened in Mankind's Past and Present from no-one's particular point of view. Pure History! But, it will never be told. Pure History doesn't care if the current or past governments or peoples of any country look bad or performed questionable acts-or Good acts, for that matter. It only recounts what Happened. What an amazing book that would have been....