Why does the Third Reich attract so many collectors?

[drmessimer]

mauser9: You are right on target with that comment. and I agree completely with, "Also you have to respect the fantastic fighting qualities and the ability to inflict horrendous casulties on the enemy even in retreat." That is the point we are trying to make; despite the political background to the conflict, the individual bravery and tenacity of the individual soldier is to be respected and recognized. Thanks for a fine post. Dwight

[mauser9]

mauser9: You are right on target with that comment. and I agree completely with, "Also you have to respect the fantastic fighting qualities and the ability to inflict horrendous casulties on the enemy even in retreat." That is the point we are trying to make; despite the political background to the conflict, the individual bravery and tenacity of the individual soldier is to be respected and recognized. Thanks for a fine post. Dwight

Thank you for your compliment and am glad you enjoyed my post. I truly believe the war could have had a different outcome had Manstein been made commander in chief of the war in the east and a few other ill decisions been rectified. Interesting indeed.

[Larry C]

To all.

Having just watched a documentary on the holocaust, it is imperative that as a collector of third reich material, you keep first and foremost in your mind what an absolute abomination of human creation the third reich, in all it's permutations - civilian and military were.

This was a regime that murdered millions and is soaked in blood.

Remember that. It stands above all sentiment and ideas of aesthetics.

Stalinist russia is equally as reprehensible for it's gulags.

Before you paint me, I despise politics of ANY persuasion. We must remember that by collecting, we keep alive the memory of those that suffered.

The best thing to happen to history is to not let it be forgotten so as such atrocities will never happen again. The collections of these items are the living memory of those times. The very far left are trying to extinguish history itself....so far left,, that it comes up on its own right side!! I am not one to bury my head in the sand and pretend it never happened. Its too late as it has already happened. The persecuted themselves,,,, those who are still remaining from those times, and their next generations are #1 in keeping that memory alive. Should we tell the persecuted not to think about it? The study in the Third Reich era and the culture it affected goes together. Hitler did not just start trouble on a whim for the heck of it....Hitler singled them out. The study in the Third Reich is not just about Nazism,, it is a study in human failure, on what happens when power is given to failed intellectual degenerates.
So yes there is a mystery that tugs at our imaginations,, and makes us ask the question why this happened,,and the items we collect bring us closer to the truth.

[DioMac]

On re-reading my post today, the tone might have come across a little off. I was affected by what I saw, and it led me to question certain things.

Sorry for any aggressive overtones guys.

I think this conversation is very healthy for the forum

[Scout]

For what its worth, I didnt think your post aggressive. Many of us cant watch the WWII documentaries without being moved (I sincerely hope).

Scout: Very well said. Dwight

Thanks, Dwight.

Thank you for your compliment and am glad you enjoyed my post. I truly believe the war could have had a different outcome had Manstein been made commander in chief of the war in the east and a few other ill decisions been rectified. Interesting indeed.

I vehemently agree.
The Allies can count themselves lucky, that AH was in charge.
Other fine generals on the Allied side too of course, but M might have been the most capable general of WWII.
This from a purely military and non-political POV.
(I wonder, how he felt after the war; all that fighting, all those losses. He even lost his own son during the fighting on the Eastern Front).
BTW I heartedly recommend his book - VERLORENE SIEGE (lost victories), which incidentally is the best title of a WWII book....EVER!

The best thing to happen to history is to not let it be forgotten so as such atrocities will never happen again. The collections of these items are the living memory of those times. The very far left are trying to extinguish history itself....so far left,, that it comes up on its own right side!! I am not one to bury my head in the sand and pretend it never happened. Its too late as it has already happened. The persecuted themselves,,,, those who are still remaining from those times, and their next generations are #1 in keeping that memory alive. Should we tell the persecuted not to think about it? The study in the Third Reich era and the culture it affected goes together. Hitler did not just start trouble on a whim for the heck of it....Hitler singled them out. The study in the Third Reich is not just about Nazism,, it is a study in human failure, on what happens when power is given to failed intellectual degenerates.
So yes there is a mystery that tugs at our imaginations,, and makes us ask the question why this happened,,and the items we collect bring us closer to the truth.

Underlined part; I agree and also touched upon this in an earlier post.
Highlighted part; I understand some of the things, that made Germay jump on the band wagon (the thrashing after WWII of a once proud nation with a strong military tradition.
Just look at how quickly Germany recovered after WWII (and was made to recover) and how fast the country bacame a strong economy and equally strong NATO partner).
But I still find it difficult to fathom, how many TR officials/leading figuers were acclaimed intellectuals, who not only allowed it to happen but also willingly participated. Personal ambition and power hunger can only explain so much.
.......but then again, it has happened else where too, where officials sent hundreds of thousands to their deaths without even thinking about it.

[drmessimer]

Scout: I agree with idea you expressed when you wrote, "But I still find it difficult to fathom, how many TR officials/leading figures were acclaimed intellectuals, who not only allowed it to happen but also willingly participated. Personal ambition and power hunger can only explain so much." It's question many people have asked and one that takes volumes to answer. But I wouldn't describe them as "acclaimed intellectuals," though I'm sure that there are people who use that term. In my opinion, they were a motley assortment of mediocre intellects at best. And you're right that personal ambition and power hunger can explain only so much with regard to why the leading officials and personalities willingly participated in the excesses that followed 30 July Machtergreifung.
I think that among the real movers and shakers in the NSDAP there existed the common zeal of the true believer. Fanaticism is an accurate term to use to describe their zeal. Below that level, in the realm of the middle-managers, the degree of commitment was probably more varied. But there is one facet of any totalitarian state that must be considered when forming an answer to your question, and that is the constant fear that exists throughout the entire system--top to bottom. And that fear becomes even more manifest through the public application of repeated, ruthless examples of the police state's power. The Nazis certainly did not invent that technique, it has been around forever, and it exists today, and they are not the perfect example of its use. As for how they got many of the German people to support them, they had fertile ground to plow, but right up to the 30 January 1933 Machtergreifung, a substantial part of the German population opposed the NSDAP. And even after the Nazis had tightened their grip on the nation, there were vast numbers of Germans who's support was at best conditional, often spotty, and waned rapidly as the war turned against Germany. There will be a quiz next Friday.

30651-083633_DEU_NS_Zeit_Machtuebernahme_NS507.jpg

Demonstrations like this torch-light parade through the Brandenburg Gate on the night of 30-31 January 1933 are the visible methods of broadcasting the power of the state. Though there is no specific intent of projecting fear, the subtle message is none-the-less there. Dwight

[mauser9]

Many individuals quickly turn the other cheek when personal gain be it power or financial are involved. Siding with the right higher ups often led to advancement or perhaps a cushier position in the Reich. Is not so hard to understand when things are going well and they believed ultimate victory was close at hand. Like I said earlier had the right brains like Manstein had direct control the war in Russia might have indeed been won. However with the problems of manpower, transportation, logistics, and fuel along with fighting on other fronts final victory could still have been difficult. Many interesting scenerios however.

[Scout]

Dwight, good post, well written.
Agreed, acclaimed is a five dollar word and too much in that context. 'Acclaimed' smacks of great fame and that is of course not the case. Most of these guys were not even well known out side Germany.....at least not until AFTER '45, LOL.

I should have said as follows; many of these leading and mid level figures had letters after their name.
There were doctors, Ph.Ds for crying out loud.

Check out Werner Best for example. Clearly not a stupid man (well, he conned the Danes into not executing him, so he cant have been dumb, LOL). He was clearly intelligent and an intellectual.

He is far from the only example - there were many.

I agree, that the 'steamroller' tactics from the lowest level to the highest served the regime well in regards to maintaining power and guarding against threats from within Germany.

There were party members/informants even in the individual apartments blocks in the form of individual TR supporters and the 'Blockwärter.'

Woe be to those even in the higher echelons, who showed weakness and no inititive - both in supporting the regime and in maintaining their own power platform.
If they didnt show the correct amount of 'patriotic' ferver on one side, they might fall by the wayside i.e. lose favour with those at the highest peak.
further more, there are written examples of power brokers as high as Gauleiters, who complain directly to their old buddy from the 'Kampfzeit,' AH and get the message, that the two antagonists have to duke it out between themselves!
Lesson; if you are not ruthless enough, there is an even more ruthless regime loyal party member breathing down your neck.
If that wasnt motive enough, I dont know what is.
Example; Man in power in the Eastern Territories responsible for sending slavic peoples to camps. If soft and not sending enough transports of people to camps, he will be replaced.
If efficient (sending many transports on time), he will be commended and will keep the position and/or be promoted.

As you touch upon, going against the grain was not advised and could/would have terrible consequenses (Weiss Rose et al ad nauseam).
If you didnt toe the line, you would get steamrollered. Might be something like being ostrazised and/or losing your job. At the other and of the scale, it might mean a one way ticket to a 're-education' camp (read KZ).

Sadly, we see it even today. People in liberal Europe get steamrollered, if they go against the grain or dont 'toe the official party line.'
The powers that be has a political agenda and has succeeded in brain washing sheeple into believing, that you are a fascist or the like, if you touch upon certain themes.
There are a couple of them, which might mean you land in hot water. There are certain problems in Europe today, but if you mention them, you get steamrollered - ostrazised and you might lose your job.

Sound famliar? See above.

Yes, there is a clear parallel, its just the colour of the politics, which have changed.
Okay, so Im a cynic.
I will quit while the going is good here, as Im stepping into modern politics and that is neither the scope of the thread and further more, itll end in tears, as these things mostly do.

[drmessimer]

Scout: I can't argue with what you said, especially with the fact that several of the top NSDAP leaders had the Doctor title. And they were clever. Still when I look at photos of men like Martin Bormann, Heinrich Himmler, and many of the other big names in the NSDAP, I see little more than thugs. Actually, I see just another run-of-the-mill, 2-bit politician with too much power and authority. But you are right we are starting to drift afield from the exercise of learning why the Third Reich is so attractive to collectors and historians. Still, the slight off-course discussion itself illustrates the attraction. Peopl are amazed, puzzled, or just plain curious as to how it all happened, why it happened, and who were the people who made it happen. I know first hand about the perils of being objective among academics. Dwight

[rbminis]

A great thread Dwight!
Many good points of view and some very well stated opinions make this thread a great read.
I was born approximately 10 years after the war here in Canada. While I was quite young, I played with my toy soldiers, and usually the germans were the ones who lost. (I wonder why). As I grew older, I started to realise that this was because of what I had learned from those around me, not what my parents taught me. As I grew older yet, I started to become proud of the fact that I was of direct german descent. I was, and still am proud of the general opinion that German workmanship was among the highest possible and have tried to retain that in all that I do to this day. I have very few "political" awards as I do not like politics in general. I believe that most politicians, IF they are honest, will not make it to the top. IF they do, they have lost their honesty somewhere along the way.
I am not going to be as eloquant as some of the others. I had primarily been an edged weapons collector and due to the daggers and knives that derived from that time, I had a minor interest in it. My real interest in the TR Germany started when I received a PAB and an EK II that were awarded to my father along with a few bits of documentation from him along with a few photos of him in uniform. It didn't take me long to realise that there was something special in those photos and the fact that I have them.
I do not generally delve into "Nazi-ism", but it is virtually unavoidable if you have any interest in the period. My main interest in the TR period is in the soldat who was in the tanks, trenches, and on foot. As has been said by others, most soldaten fought and died for his "brothers in arms", not for politics.
Whether people like it or not, I am proud of my father and that I can say that I am of direct German descent.
I will leave you with a few photos.
Ralph.
6.jpg3b.jpg4.jpg7.jpg1.jpg2.jpg
Here are his medals.
8.jpg
Here is what I have now. I have added medals that he told me he qualified for.
13.jpg