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WWII Diplomats sword? Please help with ID

Article about: by kfssir I also suggest a court sword, carried by a 'high sheriff' or person who 'could' (allowed too) wear court dress. The modern equilivent would cost upwards of 1500 new. Paul British

  1. #1

    Default WWII Diplomats sword? Please help with ID

    Hello all,

    Here I have for view and opinion, is what I believe to be a WWI-II era European diplomat epee. I have not found any markings, which make ID'ing the sword quite difficult. The most expert opinion to have examined it so far has suggested a diplomatic sword from the first half of the 20th century. The 'flower' style markings on the guard, grip and pommel could possibly be of United Kingdom or Dutch heritage.

    This epee has been exquisitely constructed, with a triangle nickel plated blade and very sharp point. This example really points to the pinnacle of sword technology.

    Has anyone ever seen another? Any opinions would be most welcome. Thank you.

    Kind regards,
    Chris
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  2. #2

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    imo it a end of apprenticeship course item,to show off their skills.

  3. #3

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    Quote by harryamb2 View Post
    imo it a end of apprenticeship course item,to show off their skills.
    Hello,

    Due to the lack of markings?

    Kind regards,
    Chris

  4. #4

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    Hi, An interesting weapon but IMO definitely not British Diplomatic Service. Usually, Dip swords have some form of national insignia on the quillon, grip or clam shell guard rather than stars and studs etc. and the knot would be of very high quality. Please do not think that I am being rude but your knot looks more like a drape tie than a sword knot. Further, most Dip swords have gilded hilts where as yours appears to be either aloy or stainless steel?? If I were to go with a guess I would be inclined to say that, if it is a genuine sword, then it could possibly be a society or non militrary uniformed organisational accoutrement??

    As I have no real idea what it is, I could be totally incorrect in my opinions. However I hope that my comments are of interest to you.

    Regards Michael R

  5. #5

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    PS, Lack of manufacturer's logos etc in not necessarily a negative. I have a number of swords that are not attributable to a specific manufacturer which I personnaly find strange but not unusual. Is there any etching to the blade?? If so better quality photos may well help. Also, some photos of the hilt and scabbard would assist.
    Cheers again MR

  6. #6

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    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    Hi, An interesting weapon but IMO definitely not British Diplomatic Service. Usually, Dip swords have some form of national insignia on the quillon, grip or clam shell guard rather than stars and studs etc.
    Hello Michael,

    Thank you for your comments, a very interesting read! I do agree that lack of national insignia makes this difficult to pin point heritage and most likely can not be linked to the UK or another nation with ease. I do feel you are correct here though I can't help thinking that the pommel design is somewhat like a crown design.

    The other avenue I have been looking down is possible private owned epee from the time that it was still fashionable to wear them. I have found some very similar swords made by a late Victorian era firm. I can't quite remember thier name, but will find out again when I am home from work and post pics.

    Thanks again for your insight.

    Kind regards,
    Chris

  7. #7

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    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    Please do not think that I am being rude but your knot looks more like a drape tie than a sword knot. Further, most Dip swords have gilded hilts where as yours appears to be either aloy or stainless steel?? Regards Michael R
    Hi again,

    Not rude at all, the swords 'knot' is not native to the epee. It came out of a bag of militaria based items I had and I thought it works until a better one comes along! I should have stated that in initial post. A very sharp eye, thank you Michael!
    Regarding the hilt, I don't think that its SS as I have just restored it from a very dull, dark patina. Many collecters would hate this, but I felt that such a epee needs to be bright and shiny like it once was! The blade has always been that colour, hence my assuming it to be nickel platted.

    Thanks again, the research continues!

    Kind regards,
    Chris.

    P.S more pics will be posted tonight. Cheers.

    - - ------- - -

    Quote by Michael Ryan View Post
    PS, Lack of manufacturer's logos etc in not necessarily a negative. I have a number of swords that are not attributable to a specific manufacturer which I personnaly find strange but not unusual. Is there any etching to the blade?? If so better quality photos may well help. Also, some photos of the hilt and scabbard would assist.
    Cheers again MR
    There is no sign of etching - cheers

  8. #8

    Default 19th century court sword?

    I have finally found a very similar sword for comparison; this one was sold by Fontaine's Auction Gallery in Jan 2010. It was listed as follows;

    Small or Court Sword (Victorian), England, 19th Century

    "Small or Court Sword (Victorian), England, 19th Century. Cut steel hilt with faceted studs; urn-type pommel with tang button. Cut steel turn-down guard decorated with faceted rivets and three etched stars; small pas-d`anes; knuckle bow with faceted studs. 30 " double-edged straight blade with triangular hollow ground. Black leather scabbard with two steel mounts with banded motifs and faceted frog button."

    Examine the photos. The similarities are evident and the condition is comparable, I wonder if my example was made by the same manufacturers, although unfortunately this example appears to be lacking any markings as well. While it is possible that the sellers got the age wrong, I will remain hopeful that my epee is possibly from the late 19th Century! I would assume that the makers are the same for this example.

    Kind regards,
    Chris
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  9. #9

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    Hi Chris, Thank you for your response, comments and additional photos etc. I am inclined to think that the title given in the sales detail is, perhaps, a hit and hope suggestion rather than a definitive statement of the actual sword. I totaly agree with your assesment that they would appear to be by the same manufacturer as they are so closely, almost matched. But what they are is still a bit of a mistery to me and I hope that you do get a 100% positive ID on it as I for one would love to know!!! Happy researching!!
    Regards and best wishes MR

    PS, After all is said, it is still an elegant and attractive item!!!

  10. #10
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    I also suggest a court sword, carried by a 'high sheriff' or person who 'could' (allowed too) wear court dress. The modern equilivent would cost upwards of 1500 new.

    Paul

    British type but could be forign manufactor

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