37 Pattern Webbing Set

[BrodieBartfast]

Hello folks.

Picked this up over this last week, purchased from a reenactor. It was described as being wartime dated, though not all the markings were photographed. I decided to take a gamble, as the price was right, and it paid off. I've wanted to put together a 37 Pattern webbing set for some time, and I was pleased to be able to get a full set all at once.

This set features a belt and shoulder straps; two 'Pouches, Basic' (commonly referred to as 'Bren gun pouches); an entrenching tool cover, head and handle (the head is faintly marked '1944'); bayonet frog and water bottle. There is also a small metal hook on a canvas loop, the purpose of which I haven't been able to figure out. Both pouches are dated 1943, though they bear different manufacturer's markings. The belt is dated 1941, the maker's code too worn to make out, and the left hand shoulder strap is marked 'NORMAL' with a broad arrow. None of the other components have visible markings. The entire set has been treated with KG3 Blanco.



Currently, I'm hanging this set over my KD bush jacket, and I think it looks the part. My aim is to recreate a full uniform representing a British soldier in the Mediterranean, circa 1944, as that is the theatre and timeframe in which my own great grandfathers served.



Regards, B.B.

[BrodieBartfast]

After some googling, I've discovered the small hook was used to carry a clasp knife. Mystery solved!

B.B.

[Watchdog]

Nice basic set Brodie. One of those things that everyone thinks is easy to find until they want one

Many British soldiers from as late as the late '70s / early '80s will remember with fondness (really?) the '37 patt from basic training. I was fortunate being infantry at that time we started with '58 patt but the scars are the same

I know the '37 from pre-enlistment fun with the Army Cadet Force!

Your set appears to have had a good dose of Blanco, probably No3 Khaki Green so you might find this interesting;

Potted history of web cleaning | Blanco and Bull

The webbing clasp knife clip was replaced by a natural coloured cotton rope "lanyard" which continued in use for decades which was much more practical. I still have one somewhere. They were great for things like compasses and your "racing spoon" too

Regards

Mark

[BrodieBartfast]

Nice basic set Brodie. One of those things that everyone thinks is easy to find until they want one

Many British soldiers from as late as the late '70s / early '80s will remember with fondness (really?) the '37 patt from basic training. I was fortunate being infantry at that time we started with '58 patt but the scars are the same

I know the '37 from pre-enlistment fun with the Army Cadet Force!

Your set appears to have had a good dose of Blanco, probably No3 Khaki Green so you might find this interesting;

Potted history of web cleaning | Blanco and Bull

The webbing clasp knife clip was replaced by a natural coloured cotton rope "lanyard" which continued in use for decades which was much more practical. I still have one somewhere. They were great for things like compasses and your "racing spoon" too

Regards

Mark

Thanks for the link, Mark. Who knew something as mundane as Blanco could be so interesting?

The site notes that 'KG3' first saw widespread application from D-Day onwards. Would this Blanco shade be correct for late war Mediterranean use, too? I only ask because my great grandfather fought in that theatre, most notably at the fourth battle of Monte Cassino, and I'd like to put together a set that resembles what he would have been kitted out with at that time. I know KD bush jackets replaced the thinner Aertex shirt as troops moved further north, but I wasn't sure whether the average Tommy would have kept his webbing in 'desert colours', or applied Blanco to suit the Italian climate.

The clasp knife clip had me confused for the past few days. For some reason it never occurred to me that a hook for that specific tool might exist.

Regards, B.B.

[Watchdog]

Thanks for the link, Mark. Who knew something as mundane as Blanco could be so interesting?

The site notes that 'KG3' first saw widespread application from D-Day onwards. Would this Blanco shade be correct for late war Mediterranean use, too? I only ask because my great grandfather fought in that theatre, most notably at the fourth battle of Monte Cassino, and I'd like to put together a set that resembles what he would have been kitted out with at that time. I know KD bush jackets replaced the thinner Aertex shirt as troops moved further north, but I wasn't sure whether the average Tommy would have kept his webbing in 'desert colours', or applied Blanco to suit the Italian climate.

The clasp knife clip had me confused for the past few days. For some reason it never occurred to me that a hook for that specific tool might exist.

Regards, B.B.

I would say that KG3 is probably OK because the thing with Blanco is that there was a good degree of unit practice or preference involved with the shade which more than likely would be influenced at levels from the unit CO to Bde or Div command. Although it wouldn't be the regular thing to use blanco in the field, better things to get on with etc! So, with the practice being left behind in barracks the look you would be after for the Med would be "not recently applied" and sort of weathered. Pretty much as it is now really.
In peace time there was even a disgusting purply /reddish colour used by airborne units for parades and as I recall that some Royal Engineer units had a thing for black though I believe that was boot polish.

I remember having to whiten plimsoles /gym shoes but also having to put boot polish on the black ones (service issue were either black or white canvass over the years) this was also down to unit level policy!

Regards

Mark

[BrodieBartfast]

I would say that KG3 is probably OK because the thing with Blanco is that there was a good degree of unit practice or preference involved with the shade which more than likely would be influenced at levels from the unit CO to Bde or Div command. Although it wouldn't be the regular thing to use blanco in the field, better things to get on with etc! So, with the practice being left behind in barracks the look you would be after for the Med would be "not recently applied" and sort of weathered. Pretty much as it is now really.
In peace time there was even a disgusting purply /reddish colour used by airborne units for parades and as I recall that some Royal Engineer units had a thing for black though I believe that was boot polish.

I remember having to whiten plimsoles /gym shoes but also having to put boot polish on the black ones (service issue were either black or white canvass over the years) this was also down to unit level policy!

Regards

Mark

Thanks for that. I'd hate to do my ancestors a disservice by representing them incorrectly. The Royal Armoured Corps was fond of blacking their webbing equipment too, I believe, to match their distinctive black berets.

Another quick question, though perhaps slightly off-topic. Was divisional insignia ever worn on the KD bush jacket? Insignia on KD uniforms in general seems to be a bit of a minefield in regards to information. My idea was to acquire a couple of 4th Infantry Division patches and attach them to this jacket, though obviously I wouldn't want to do that if it was incorrect.

(P.S. Apologies for bombarding you with questions!)

Regards, B.B.

[Watchdog]

No worries mate,that is the whole idea of the forum is it not? I get really hacked off with endless "is this real" posts. Much better and more to the benefit of all to discuss a subject.

To answer your question I have to say I think so but again this is something that varied hugely even within theatre according to local policy and availability regardless of what dress regs might have said (the priorities issue again!). You can be fairly sure that if it was dictated in dress regs then the unit would have arrived in theatre correctly "badged" but how long that would last in the field is entirely subjective. There is also field security concerns that might have seen unit distinctions such as formation signs removed in particular circumstances.

Some will give you an answer based on the regs but I would suggest you research a specific unit and look for period evidence from the field.

I am not an expert on theatre dress regs. The insignia itself is within my field but where and when it was worn is a bit different. The approach I find best is one that I use a lot at work; just because somebody says it was or did happen doesn't mean you don't have to prove it. Evidence is key, find a photo for a start.

I hope that helps

Regards

Mark

PS So, 4 Div, what unit? I'll have a ponder.

[BrodieBartfast]

No worries mate,that is the whole idea of the forum is it not? I get really hacked off with endless "is this real" posts. Much better and more to the benefit of all to discuss a subject.

To answer your question I have to say I think so but again this is something that varied hugely even within theatre according to local policy and availability regardless of what dress regs might have said (the priorities issue again!). You can be fairly sure that if it was dictated in dress regs then the unit would have arrived in theatre correctly "badged" but how long that would last in the field is entirely subjective. There is also field security concerns that might have seen unit distinctions such as formation signs removed in particular circumstances.

Some will give you an answer based on the regs but I would suggest you research a specific unit and look for period evidence from the field.

I am not an expert on theatre dress regs. The insignia itself is within my field but where and when it was worn is a bit different. The approach I find best is one that I use a lot at work; just because somebody says it was or did happen doesn't mean you don't have to prove it. Evidence is key, find a photo for a start.

I hope that helps

Regards

Mark

I greatly appreciate your help. It's something I've been researching in vain for some time. My great grandfather was with the King's Liverpool Regiment, and finding any photos at all of this regiment in the field is nigh on impossible, never mind finding photos of members in KD battledress. I can't recall ever having seen photographs of KD uniforms with divisional insignia attached, so I suppose it's best to play it safe and not add any insignia to a uniform that most probably did not have it in the first place.

I'll keep searching, and I'll update this thread if I manage to find anything. I may just end up buying a 1937 or 1940 pattern battledress blouse and building the 'impression' off that.

Regards, B.B.

[Watchdog]

This looks like a formation sign on KD in Sicily 1943 but I can't make out which one;



Regards

Mark

[BrodieBartfast]

I have seen that photo before, but never noticed the formation patch! Goes to show a keen eye can spot things that others may easily miss.

These are what I'd be looking to add to a uniform. Apart from one photo of my great grandfather, showing him stood in front of a transport vehicle with the divisional sign on the bumper (I don't have it in my possession, unfortunately, otherwise I'd post it here), I haven't been able to locate any other period photos of this particular patch in wear.



Regards, B.B.