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1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

Article about: Hi all, I don't collect ID discs, I only have the ones that a friend gave me a long time ago,and amongst them (all found in the Anzio/Nettuno/Cassino area) there was this ID which belonged t

  1. #1

    Default 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

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ID:	440365Hi all,
    I don't collect ID discs, I only have the ones that a friend gave me a long time ago,and amongst them (all found in the Anzio/Nettuno/Cassino area) there was this ID which belonged to a "Green Devil" who fought (and most likely died) during the Battles in and around Cassino.
    Cheers

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  3. #2

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    I always thought that FJ disks were MOB numbered?

    Cheers, Ade.
    Had good advice? Saved money? Why not become a Gold Club Member, just hit the green "Join WRF Club" tab at the top of the page and help support the forum!

  4. #3

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Quote by Adrian Stevenson View Post
    I always thought that Fallschirmjager disks were MOB numbered?

    Cheers, Ade.
    What does MOB means Ade?Do you thnk it belonged to something else...it comes from the area and it's certainly not a fake....I'm not expert in ID disc,but I cannot think of anything else...
    Cheers

  5. #4

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Quote by Horrido View Post
    What does MOB means Ade?
    Cheers
    Mobilisation number. I was actually under the same impression...

  6. #5

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Quote by ObKrieger View Post
    Mobilisation number. I was actually under the same impression...
    Yeah...I came to think of it after I posted...yes...Luftwaffe discs are just numbered (that's ALL I know) but what is this tag then?
    It's original but....could it be something related to some other unit?Or a "one of a kind"?
    Any clue?Now I'm intrigued....

  7. #6

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Could this be a Heer fallschirmjager erkennungsmarke?....
    It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.



    I'm Spartacus, not really i'm Paul!...

  8. #7

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Quote by Gunny Hartmann View Post
    Could this be a Heer fallschirmjager erkennungsmarke?....
    These ID discs drive me crazy...another one from the same bunch reads "Bau. Kol." ..... Bau Kolonne ?
    Heer Fallschirmjager?I always tought they were transferred to the Luftwaffe before the outbreak of the War...found this..it could be of help:

    Axis History Forum • View topic - Heeres Fallschirmjäger?

    At a certain point we can read "Major Heidrich wears the WH eagle on his jump smock. Note too the rank insignia on the sleeves. Heidrich, who earned his jump badge at the age of 41, left the FIB for a staff job at 7. Fliger-Division on November 4th 1938 but would see his boys again when given the job of forming Fallschirmjäger-Rgt 3 in 1940. The FIB was transferred to the Luftwaffe on January 1st 1939, becoming II./Fallschirmjäger-Rgt 1. The 2nd Bn then formed the cadre of FJR 3. Heidrich would subsequently command 7. Flieger-Division, which became 1. Fallschirmjäger-Division in 1943 and then I. Fallschirm-Korps."

    Quite interesting....if this ID disc is a Heer Erkennungsmarke it could be MUCH rarer than a Luftwaffe Fallschirmjager one then!

  9. #8

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    A replacement Dogtag perhaps?
    What about this one posted years ago on another Forum?:

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    Called my old friend to ask about their whereabouts and he has told me that this one and a few others which I sold two years ago (hope I haven't made a mistake!) came from the Mount Faito Area...I've made a google search and came up to this:

    The Battle for Monte Ornito: 2nd Coldstream Guards War Diary - World War 2 Talk

    Now I'm really curious...it could well be a tag issued because the old one had been lost or to a transferred man or a tag given to a replacement?

  10. #9
    ?

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Ade is right- real Fallschirmjäger discs were coded; I've never seen anything to suggest there was ever a plain text type. It's not a Heer unit- there was only one FJR1, which was regular Luftwaffe. The roll number is extremely low, so it's not likely a replacement disc- and a replacement would be the usual coded type anyway.

    The text doesn't look at all realistic- it's extremely similar to many fake fonts though. The disc itself is very weird- not a normal shape at all; I've seen one like it before but not any proof it was real. And the Trennschlitzen don't even line up- not at all usual for a real disc but something that is seen on fakes; and is it plated or something? No real Erkennungsmarke I know of were ever coated. Sorry, I just don't see anything that would make me believe this one is real. There'd have to be some indisputable proof like having come directly from the original wearer, or been found with remains and an official case file to prove it, or the like becaue it doesn't fit a single criterion of a LW Fallschirmjäger disc.

    The HG one might be okay, although HG units are faked a lot. There were 24 Batterien, so this one being the 18. is okay although there'd have to have been a central roll because there's no way there were ever 1008 men in one single Batterie alone. And in case the suggestion is that it being plain text might support the FJR1 one being so, it's not- the HG units were not regular FJ units, or even necessarily actually FJ units, despite the title. And they always had plain text discs.
    Ohhhhh- pillage then burn...

  11. #10

    Default Re: 1 / FJ R. 1 Erkennungsmarke from Cassino

    Hi Matt,
    thanks a lot for your very interesting reply.The shape of this disc is absolutely identical to other discs I've got.It's not plated,it's the flash that makes it look so "weird".
    Very strange for it comes from a guy who didn't either buy or sell,it's very old (I don't think they faked them so many years ago) and it's not for sale.
    Further,It's encrusted in place with something closely resembling the oxydation seen on many discs/buckles coming from dug items (especially the ones that have been in contact with blood),which would be difficult to recreate/fake.You say that an official case after the finding of the remains of a soldier would tell if it's original or not or,for that matters,having it straight from the wearer...in one of this case all the rules about the MOB-numbering wouldn't apply?
    Apart from the fact that I think that MOB(nummer) is a German acronym and doesn't stand for MOB(ilization),I also have the Schiffer book on the German Paratroopers and a few other books on the Luftwaffe at that, but I don't think that what Mr. Mason or Mr. Kurtz say is carved in stone,after all how many here have noticed that a few of the items depicted in the book are...fakes?Are they there intentionally or unintentionally?When I hear or read of "ALL these" or of "ALL those" I'm always wary,after all I seriously doubt that we could ever dream of seeing ALL of "those" things;we're talking about thousands and thousands of them aren't we?
    The trennschlitzen don't 100% line-up on the second disc either,but it's considered genuine.
    The fact is that it doesn't come from a seller/dealer,it's old and it's been found decades ago it's reassuring on one hand,but on the other it must have belonged to someone because I really can't see a faker in the mid 70s faking German ID Discs...not in that part of Italy...there they blatantly and brilliantly faked Rolex Watches ,Parker fountain pens and stuff like that,stuff that would bring in the fakers's pockets good money,which thing is unlikely with a "niche" item like this and believe me,if you've never seen the items they fake in Neaples you couldn't believe what they'd do to get them right...if they'd fake these discs they'd get them 100% right..their motto being "They're better than the originals",and that applies to Gucci leatherware and cheap CDs/DVDs alike!I know that they started to fake EKs in Germany on April 10th 1945 for the occupation troops looking for souvenirs though,but it's unlikely that it was done here...never heard of!
    It may be not a Fallschirmjager/Luftwaffe ID disc (too good to be true then...the area...the writing.. ) but it sure isn't a fake...there must be more behind it.I'm not trying to talk myself into believing that this tag is Fallschirmjager,I'm not going to cry my eyes out if it isn't and I'm as happy as a clam at high tide if it is, but I sure won't dismiss it as a fake ID disc either.Many items that have been considered fakes in the past aren't "fakes" anymore,while many genuine items which have appeared in many books considered by many to be "bibles" were in fact fakes...please note that I never use the words "repro" or "replica"...all the Vals dive bombers that appeared in the "Pearl Harbour" movie were "replicas",while many items which have been featured in books and later on sold for top money because their photo(s) were in this or that book turned out to be fakes later on!
    Even if this ID tag belonged to a candyman it surely isn't a fake artifact,to whom it belonged isn't that important at this point.
    Here in Europe we've got millions of fakes on the market and the collectors and buyer must be very,very weary,know their sh### and do their homework before committing,but we've got the "luck" to live where the real action took place whereas In America or Australia collectors have to make do with books,dealers and vets.From time to time we can see and handle things that cannot be found Overseas and I'm NOT talking about this ID disc!
    I've read with utmost interest your reply because it's been sorta inspirational and now I know something more about these erkennungsmarken!
    Cheers
    Last edited by Horrido; 12-24-2012 at 11:51 AM.

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