12 SS Panzer Div (real or fake)

**daddydog** · 07-05-2009, 09:55 PM

My eye tells me this is fake, but I've not seen one of these before. What do you make of it? Thanks in advance.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 07-05-2009 09:55 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Adrian Stevenson** · 07-05-2009, 10:04 PM

Hi, you are correct, it will be a fake due to the designation used. A tag merely made out to a Division and not a sub unit thereof would not be correct.

Cheers, Ade.

**Nick VR** · 07-05-2009, 10:27 PM

Like Ade said, I love the runes on it though...

Greetz

Nick VR

**Jan** · 07-05-2009, 11:09 PM

I was only looking at the differences in patina and...

**JPhilip** · 07-06-2009, 11:29 PM

Hello,
I agree with previous comments.
That's a fake....

As mentioned by Ade, Erkennungsmarken were issued at small unit level, as companies, Abteilungen, and sometimes soldiers were not issued a dogtag in their current field unit, keeping the dogtag from their training unit. There are also some mistakes on this dogtag....
Thanks

**Matt L** · 07-20-2009, 04:52 PM

Not so guys- one can indeed find discs marked to a Division. Here's one from my own collection (Kdo. Jnf. Div. 57) and another marked to the 20. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS (est.) with no sub-unit. I also have images of discs marked to SS-Pz. Gren. Div. 'Hohenstaufen', Frew. Legion Norwegen and SS-Freikorps Danmark that had with no sub-unit marking. The Waffen-SS was rather stranger with its Erkennungsmarken than were any of the other services.

While I can't say I have any positive proof the disc in question is good or bad, it's not necessarily bad because of the fact that it's marked to a Division alone. What I find a little odd is the use of the Sigrunen on the front and the letter 'S' on the back- that I'm not familar with.

**Paul D** · 07-20-2009, 05:04 PM

by Matt L

That's all not entirely correct- one can find discs marked to a Division, however those I've seen have specifically been the Division Kommando (attached). One other I used to own was marked to the Kommando of the 211. Infanterie-Division.

The Kdo is a Divisional level unit of the Division itself so technically it is a sub unit,

regards

Paul

**Matt L** · 07-20-2009, 05:07 PM

I wouldn't consider it so, however I've adjusted my post to further illustrate why the statement isn't entirely accurate either way

**Paul D** · 07-20-2009, 05:44 PM

by Matt L

I wouldn't consider it so, however I've adjusted my post to further illustrate why the statement isn't entirely accurate either way

So what do you consider a Div Kdo to be ?

Are the ones you have seen which just refer to a Divison good or fakes ?

The legions and Freikorps are also a different entity to to the Divisons especially in their early days.

**Matt L** · 07-20-2009, 05:54 PM

Well the Division Kommando is the Division, no? Nothing higher. Besides, the 'sub-unit' that I saw meant was Regiment, Abteilung, Bataillon, etc. I'm not picking at sematics here, but addressing what seems a significant misconception. The implication was that a disc marked 'Division' is not real, and I'm showing that it is. The other one I posted certainly appears real to me- I've collected and studied Erkennungsmarken for around 15 years now, and I see nothing at all that makes me think otherwise. And you're missing the point about the Legion and Freikorps- like Divisionen they're they're of the highest organizational state, thus analogous for the purposes of my suggestion that sub-units are the only ones that shoud appear on discs or that the lack of any is an indicator of a fake.